Speaker 1:

Welcome advocates to another episode of the Leading Equity Podcast, a podcast that focuses on supporting educators with the tools and resources necessary to ensure equity at their schools. Today, I've got a special guest with me, Doctor LeeAnn Stephens is here. So without further ado, LeeAnn, thank you so much for joining us today.

LeeAnn Stephens:

Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1:

Pleasure is mine. And I'm excited to talk about some of the myths surrounding our black indigenous people of color, our students in our schools when it comes to advanced courses, such as international baccalaureates, our honors courses, our advanced placements, those kinds of courses. And I'm glad that you're here with us. But before we get started, could you share a little bit about yourself and what you currently do?

LeeAnn Stephens:

Okay. So my name is LeeAnn Stephens. I live in St. Louis Park, Minnesota. I've been in education for 30 years and it was actually a second career for me. So, I was like, wow, time does move on. So, I'm currently out of the classroom, but still so I'm considered a teacher on special assignment. So, still on a teacher's contract. The last five years I've been coaching teachers as a racial equity instructional coach. And currently I am going to transition into another role as a coordinator for a high achievement program, which supports black, brown indigenous students who are taking advanced placement classes, honors classes and IB classes.

Speaker 1:

All right. Thank you. And so break down the high achievement program. What does that look like at your school?

LeeAnn Stephens:

So the high achievement program is a support program for students who are in those classes. And so what it would look like is we'd have, I'd say, probably bi-weekly meetings, normally do it grade level because there are different needs that the seniors have as opposed to juniors or sophomores and freshmen. And so we'd meet weekly, talk about what's happening in their classes, what do they need from me. I would do college visits with them. So, I'll take them on college visits and it wouldn't be my saying, "Okay, we're going to go to this college because this is a college you're going to go to," but I always wanted them to be able to see themselves in that environment if that's what they chose to do. And so just getting them on campus.

               I would also do study groups with them. So, depending on what they needed some help with, I could also then bring in others to help them with their courses as well. And so just providing that support for them. A lot of it, too, was really empowering them. So, for them to look at themselves as a scholar and not feed into the narratives that they don't belong in those courses, or they're not smart enough. We wouldn't even have conversations about the achievement gap. I was like, "No, we're not even going to talk about that because we're not going to compare ourselves to white students. We're going to set our own standard of excellence." And I also believe that it does something to your psyche when someone's constantly saying that you don't measure up to a certain group of people. And so we wouldn't even have those conversations and I'm like, "No, we're setting our own standard of excellence."

               And so that was really, really important was that standard of excellence. Right? And for them to be able to really take responsibility for their own learning. And then also I would help them see what they needed to get out of the classroom and what good teaching was. And also I would have to sometimes go and have conversations with the teachers about what was going on in the classroom with the student. When they would come and tell me like, "Oh, I'm having an issue with this teacher," I would say, "Okay, what do you want me to do?" Right? And sometimes they would want me to go have a conversation. Other times they just wanted to tell me. But then when I would have a conversation with the teacher, before I would go, I'd say, "Okay, now I'm going to go talk to this teacher, but I don't want any surprises." Right? "So, the teacher can't tell me you're not doing your work, you're not showing up to class. No surprises." And they're like, "No, no, no, there's not going to be any surprises."

               So it was really this relationship of trust, but it wasn't where I was in charge of whatever. It was more of like a family type atmosphere where we were holding each other accountable, their peers were holding them accountable. And so it was more of what does this look like, what does support look like, how do I empower students to advocate for themselves, to take ownership of their own learning? Right? And so that was more of what the high achievement program looked like.

Speaker 1:

Got it. And one of the things that you said that really stuck out to me is how you established your own standards of excellence.

LeeAnn Stephens:

Absolutely.

Speaker 1:

I have conversations with educators who have this, "Well, we have these advanced courses at our school and I want to get more students of color into these programs. However, there's this stigma that you have to either be white or you have to be extremely smart in order to get into these programs. And so therefore it's very difficult for me to do so." So when you said the standards of excellence and you consider the students scholars, that really stuck out to me. Tell me, what is standards of excellence? How are you defining those for the students? Or are you doing that with them? How is that process?

LeeAnn Stephens:

Yeah, so really, I'm looking at it on an individual, case-by-case basis looking at what the student is bringing to the table. So for example, I would have, so I can give a lot of examples, I had a student who had to do a presentation in IB class and had to do it with another student. So, she was a black girl. She had to do it with a white student, a white dude, I think, who was supposed to partner with her. And he didn't show up that day that she had to present. And so she told me, she's like, "Dr. Stephens, I had you in my head the whole time saying that, okay, he wasn't there, but that wasn't an excuse for me. That I still needed to do my presentation." And she said, "And I did it." And she knocked it out of the park.

               And so for me, that was an example of, yes, you need to take responsibility yourself. Right? And so if somebody else is not doing what they're supposed to be doing, that's not going to keep you from achieving or for showing up as your excellent self.

Speaker 1:

Okay.

LeeAnn Stephens:

And then I would have also... It's amazing to me because I don't know if we really know or talk a lot about the experiences that our black, brown indigenous students have when they are in those classes. So, one of the experiences was, because a lot do a lot of group projects and a lot of times because there's not very many, us, students of color, in those spaces, they get spread out. And so they're the ones who it's the responsibility of them to integrate the class, which I have an issue with that.

               And so one of my students was saying how they had to do a group project and they were doing it on like Google Docs or whatever. And someone had come in, one of the other group members had changed her information. And I said, "So what are you going to do about that? She said, "Well, I'm going to go back and change it back and tell them not to do the work for me." And what ended up happening is, I guess she talked to the student and was like, "Oh, we just thought it'd be easier that we were helping you out or whatever." She's like, "No, you're not helping me out. I know the information myself. So I'm putting it back and don't touch it."

               So, it was kind of those experiences where I had to have them have a standard of like this is a standard of excellence that I'm going to show up with and that I'm going to advocate for myself. Right? Which my hope is that advocacy carries over, right, it carries beyond the school, carries after they graduate, whatever they go, if they go straight to a job or if they go to college or whatever they do, that they're taking that mentality with them where they're able to advocate for themselves because they've been empowered.

Speaker 1:

I love it. And thank you for defining that. And I think that's important for just those examples that you gave, where we're talking about students of color that say, "You know what? There's a standard that I need to abide by. And I can't look at how my peers are navigating the world, but I need to figure out what I need to do to be successful. How can I feel empowered?"

LeeAnn Stephens:

Absolutely.

Speaker 1:

And I think that's wonderful. So, let's move a little bit over to, in your experience. And I know you've done dissertation work on this. What are some of the myths, if you will, in regards to abilities of our students of color, our black indigenous people of color? What are some of the myths that you have come across? And I want to start debunking those myths as well.

LeeAnn Stephens:

Absolutely. Well, first of all, that they're not intelligent enough to be in those classes because I mean, I'm going to tell you, there are a lot of white students who probably shouldn't be in those classes either. But when there's a belief out there that you, as a white student, and that's what keeps going across in my mind, when there's a belief out there that you, as a white student, you belong in that space, so whether you're achieving at the level that I think you should be, but because I believe you should, I'm going to teach you to that level. I'm going to teach it into existence is what I say.

               And so the myth is that black and brown indigenous students don't belong in those spaces, and that's not true at all. They do. And it's not the academic piece of it, the content that they tend to struggle with the most, it's the environment of their white peers who don't believe they belong in that space, the teachers who don't believe that they belong in that space. And they might not verbalize it, but it will come out in their actions. For example, one of the students was telling me how she was in her math class. There were two black students, I think it was just two of them in this class. And the teacher went around and she was checking everyone's homework and skipped those two. Didn't check, like skipped them. And they were like, "Wait a minute, you didn't come to us," or whatever. And she's like, "Oh, you have it?" Like just really surprised. And so they were really offended by that, that the expectation was that everybody else did the work but they didn't.

               Or you have other examples where they are patronized. And so one of them was saying how the teacher was telling the black kids in the class that they did a good job on an assignment, but didn't say anything to the white students. But the good job wasn't that they went above and beyond, it was that they just met the basic requirement. And so they don't want praise for something that is expected of them.

               And that was one thing that I really did try to get them to internalize, that you don't get praised for something that is expected. Right? So you filled out, you completed this assignment and that was the expectation. Okay. It's one thing if you've gone above and beyond, but if you just did it just like the white kids in the class, it was kind of like, to me, it was like a slap in the face. It's like, okay, yeah, I expect that they are going to do it. I'm going to accept these white kids are going to do it. But I didn't expect that these black, brown indigenous kids were going to do it. So I'm going to praise them or whatever.

Speaker 1:

Give them an extra pat on the back.

LeeAnn Stephens:

Absolutely. Absolutely. And it's so funny because I remember I was in my office one time and I had a lot of students in there, and one of their teachers came in and she was like telling them that they did a good job and they didn't say anything. And they looked at me, and she didn't know what to say, because of course, she was hoping they would respond. Right? And I said, "They don't get praised for something that you expected from other students as well. What you expected from your white students, they don't get praise for that." And she's like, "Oh." She didn't know what to say after that.

Speaker 1:

I love those moments.

LeeAnn Stephens:

Yeah. It is, and so it really is. When we talk about the bigotry of low expectations, I see that a lot. And so where my expectations for you are not the same as the expectations I have for white kids is if our children can't do it. Black, brown indigenous kids are super intelligent, and they can navigate a lot of different spaces. They have to navigate, right, a lot of different spaces.

               And so I remember I had a student who... Just to let you know we talk about teaching kids grit. And I have an issue with that because so many of the students that I deal with, they could teach me about grit. And so I had one particular student who I remember she had to take several buses to get to school. She had to drop off her siblings on the way and then she also worked like 35 hours a week and she was taking advanced placement calculus. And she aced the test, the AP test. But her life circumstances could have gotten in the way, but they didn't. And that's my whole point. It's like, our students, they will do what they have to do when they have somebody who believes that they can do it. Right? And it really does only take one person, I believe, to be your champion. And so that was my role. I'm going to be your champion.

               I had another student who she's finishing up her PhD right now. And she said that I was the first person to ever empower her. And she said I would never step in to take over, but I would help her with the tools to be able to navigate her teachers. And then she said because of that, when she went to college, she knew what to look for in someone as a mentor, because of her experience that she had had with me. And so that's my whole like, our students, they don't need saving, they just need to be empowered. And they just need someone to believe that they are brilliant. And you start with that. You start with, "I believe you're brilliant. And because I believe you're brilliant, this is what we're going to do together." And that's where you start. You don't start with, "I don't believe you can do it, but you know what, if you show me you can, I'm going to be surprised or you're going to be an exception to the rule." And I constantly told them like, "You are the rule. You're not the exception."

Speaker 1:

One of the things I want to touch on, LeeAnn, is the subtle, like you said, the bigotry, the biases that folks will have where, oh, okay, well, you're in my advanced placement class. So that must mean one of two things, maybe there's a quota that we're trying to meet here, or maybe you are smart, but you're probably not as smart as some of my other students in this classroom. And so the student is constantly having to try to prove to the teacher that they are worthy of being in this classroom. And the teacher may not even recognize the biases that they have, those prejudices that they have. And I love how you said they don't need saving, they just need to be empowered. They just need to be treated as if they belong. And I want to touch on retention. I feel like you have something that you would to say, well, go ahead, go ahead.

LeeAnn Stephens:

No, I was just going to say what you were saying about having to prove that they are worthy of being in those spaces, in those classes, is so true. That would come out over and over again, that they had to prove their worth, or they had to prove that they were smart. I remember one student was telling me how they would go over their pre-test or whatever, and study guides. And every time she would give an answer, they would question it, her white peers would question it. But if a white peer in that group would give an answer, they'd be like, "Oh, okay." And she said she remembers several of her answers, they were like, "Oh, we don't think that's it. We don't think that's it." And they got points for, I guess, the amount that you got correct. And she said because they didn't go with three of her responses, they got those wrong. And she said, "I knew that I had them right. But I couldn't convince them that I did. And even when we got them wrong, they didn't come back to her and say, 'Oh, you were right.'"

               So, it's those experiences. Not only do they have to prove their worthiness to the teacher, they have to do it with their peers. And can you imagine how exhausting that has to be for them? Knowing I got to go into this space and I got to still hold my breath. Right? I should be able to exhale somewhere. And they were able to exhale with me and that's where they could, they didn't have to hold their breath, but they had to go in those spaces and prove that they belong. And they shouldn't even have to prove it, like their presence, their humanity should be enough.

Speaker 1:

Yep.

LeeAnn Stephens:

But they have to prove that they're worthy to be in an advanced class, which is ridiculous.

Speaker 1:

Fortunately, the students have you, they have a space where they can go, they can recharge. But I think about-

LeeAnn Stephens:

Absolutely.

Speaker 1:

I think about those other schools that have programs such as these, that have small pockets of our students of color into these programs. And then they don't have a space to go to-

LeeAnn Stephens:

And they need it.

Speaker 1:

And they need it. We need it.

LeeAnn Stephens:

I mean, research shows, in my research, that they need to have those spaces. And it was a space of affinity for them as well, because they needed to also know that they were going, even if they weren't in the same class, but they were having the same experiences. And that would come out. And so they look forward to getting together. And I remember a student was telling me that being in that environment with other students of color, and he was just saying how he felt so affirmed because the affirmation he got from people who look like him, who were students who were saying, "Oh, you are so smart, and this and that. Can you help me with this?" He said he didn't get that from his white peers. And so he was able to get that affirmation, because our students need that, too.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Our students need it, too. And man, I got so many thoughts now. Let's talk about retention.

LeeAnn Stephens:

Okay.

Speaker 1:

So our kids are in these programs and let's just say they're fortunate enough that they have a place to go, or they may not have a place to go outside of those AP walls, if you will. What does some of the research say in regards to retention or what are some of your thoughts on that area?

LeeAnn Stephens:

Yeah, and the thing is, there wasn't a lot of, when I did my dissertation on what supports would look like for black, brown indigenous students in those classes, there wasn't a lot about retention. A lot about recruitment, but not a lot about retention. And so I personally, my thoughts are, you need a coordinator, you do need someone who can spearhead it, but also that person has to have a good relationship with the teachers because you have the relationship with the students, but you need to have the relationship with the teachers, because they need to be on my side in order for me to be able to support the students who are in their spaces.

               And that's what I was able to do to really have good relationships, which made it so much easier when I would have to have a conversation with the teacher and say, "You know what? I noticed that you are wanting to integrate your groups in your classroom, but you're putting too much responsibility on your non-white students to do that." And what would end up happening is a lot of the students would want to do their group projects in their homes. And so a lot of my black, brown indigenous students were like, "I don't even know them. I'm not going to go to their home. I don't feel comfortable." And so I was able to get that teacher to let my high achievement program, students who were in that classroom, be in a group themselves. And so I said because we allow white students to have racial affinity, we allow them, but it's like then the few black, brown indigenous students we have in the classroom, we make it their responsibility to integrate those groups. And that's not fair at all. And so I'd have those conversations.

               So, that helps them with retention as well. And it's not everybody, right? So not every black, brown indigenous student is going to want to do that. But quite a few do, quite a few wanted to work with each other because they felt more comfortable. And so we have to give them those options as well. I was real diligent about checking their grades. When I would start to see them slipping, I intervene. Right? What do you need? What do you need to be successful? How can I help you? And so not so much as I'm constantly telling them what they need or what to do, but having it come from them. So, I need a study group or I need a tutor, or I need this teacher to lighten up and not focus so heavily on me.

               So just whatever was coming up, whatever needs were coming up for them, being able to address those needs in real time, and then constantly reminding them that you belong in this space. Why do you think you don't belong in this space? Why don't you think you belong in these classes? Really reaffirming, constantly reaffirming that yes, you belong in this class. You can do this work. And so just having that mindset, giving them that mindset, because they've been convinced that those spaces, and we've sent those messages, because you go into the schools. Go into my school, you look into those classes and you see very few non-white students. And so we've already sent a message that you don't belong here. And so why do I want to step into that space when I don't see too many people who look like me? You've already told me that this is a white space. And so having to get into their heads and just constantly tell them that no, the space belongs to you, too. And so-

Speaker 1:

The other piece that I want to highlight and emphasize, it's not just the students as well. I think one of the other things, that I've come across, is when we're talking about who's teaching the AP classes. How many teachers of color are getting those opportunities?

LeeAnn Stephens:

Very few.

Speaker 1:

I had a conversation with a teacher who, she's been in the game for a long time, as far as teaching. She's well over 10, 15 years at the school. And so usually what happens is those who are more considered the veterans are the ones who get those options, those opportunities to teach those classes. And as we're thinking about, okay, well, we're trying to recruit more teachers of color, so you start bringing in more teachers of color, but they have to pay their dues, or they have to wait. Fresh out of college and all this stuff, they have to wait three or four years just before they can even get an opportunity or for someone to retire, which is often a white person. And so now they're not getting those opportunities. So, even though you may have staff, you're actively recruiting staff of color into your schools to teach-

LeeAnn Stephens:

Yes.

Speaker 1:

We got to make sure that they're getting opportunities to teach those advanced courses as well.

LeeAnn Stephens:

100%. I agree with you. And you're right, very few of them do. We don't have very many teachers of color at my high school, but I know we have a black science teacher. He does teach IB chemistry, but for me to be able to pinpoint like what he teaches is really sad because it shows that we don't have very many. And you're right. They need to see that. They need to see those examples, for sure.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

LeeAnn Stephens:

Because then it's like, "Oh, well you're teaching this class. Well, maybe this is a space for me." And then because we don't have very many, then we have to then have conversations with those white teachers who are teaching those classes. And I've had one who I coached her for the last five years. But even before, when I had this role prior to coaching, had a lot of interaction with her and she's really changed. She has really, I don't know, done a 180 as far as her thinking about black, brown indigenous students in her classroom, about her curriculum. And I think that's another thing. They need to see themselves in the curriculum as well. And that's what she's done. There's so many things she'll say she can't believe that she used to teach that she doesn't teach anymore. And so there's got to be, I think, a shift as well with the teachers, because I mean, I'm in Minnesota. You got a boatload of white teachers in the classroom. And so they're going to have to show up differently as well.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I agree. LeeAnn, I definitely consider you as providing a voice in leading equity. Why don't you give us one final word of advice to our listeners?

LeeAnn Stephens:

Okay. My one final word of advice. Right now, I totally believe that it is our time to unapologetically, not just like disrupt or interrupt, but to dismantle, to obliterate policies and practices that have continued to marginalize and de-humanize our black, brown and indigenous students. And so often we think it's somebody else's responsibility to do that, and it's not. We're who we're waiting for. You are who we're waiting for. We can't wait on other people. And now is the time because our kids have waited long enough and they can't wait anymore.

Speaker 1:

Well, if we've got some folks that want to connect with you and reach out, what's the best way to connect online?

LeeAnn Stephens:

So they can connect with me at Stephens, so S-T-E-P-H-E-N-S, dot LeeAnn, L-E-E-A-N-N, at Slpschools.org, or on Twitter at M-N-T-O-Y-2006.

Speaker 1:

There we are. All right. Well, once again, I have Doctor LeeAnn Stephens here with us today. Thank you so much for your time.

LeeAnn Stephens:

Well, thank you. I appreciate it.

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