Speaker 1:

Welcome advocates to another episode of the Leading Equity Podcast, a podcast that focuses on supporting educators with the tools and resources necessary to ensure equity at their school. Today, I have a special guest with me, Ms. Rajneet Goomer is here. So without further ado, Rajneet, thank you so much for joining us today.

Rajneet Goomer:

It's wonderful to be here. Thank you.

Speaker 1:

Pleasure is always mine and I'm excited to talk about the position of diversity, equity and inclusion officer. Sometimes it's at a district level. Sometimes it's at a school level. Sometimes it's a part-time positions. There's all these different ways that these positions have come up in our districts and schools. But before we get into it, could you share a little bit about yourself and what you currently do?

Rajneet Goomer:

Sure. I am a Director of Student Services in the Public School District. So my work is rooted in equity every day. I have been in the school district for about 16 years and in my 16 years have been working with DEI as, like you said, a part-time type job within the school since then.

Speaker 1:

Okay. Well, great. Sound like we have the right person here for this topic. So let's move into, what are some of the things that we need to consider? If let's say we just get hired into a position as a diversity equity inclusion, again, depending on what level that is, what are some things that we should start considering in our first, I don't know, 100 days or I guess 100 days is too much for school, but first maybe a month or so, what are some things that we should consider?

Rajneet Goomer:

I think first is just observing the culture of the district and the mindset. We know that equity is not just another initiative to add on top of everything else. It is really the culture of the building, a lens that you look through with everything that you do. So observing that culture and where that staff and administration are because you have to have everybody on board and looking at all your systems and what's necessary to then move forward and how you're going to do that. So I often say that we're not checking boxes, we're building culture. It's easy to do a diversity training and say, okay, done that. But if that's not follow-through, and it's not a part of the everyday work that we do, then we're not building an equitable inclusive district.

Speaker 1:

I'm so glad you said that and here's why. I get called in and I get contracted to work with districts all the time to do work. And one of the things I try to share with the administrator or superintendent is, even if I spend a half day with your group, or if I spend an hour with your group, whatever the setup is for our contract, there needs to be work that happens in between when I'm gone. Okay? You can't expect me to change the lives of everybody without reinforcement happening on your end. And I always ask the question, "What are you going to do when I'm not around? How are you going to continue these conversations? How are you going to facilitate your staff meetings or your memos or whatever you have going on, what are some things that I can trust that when I show up again, maybe a month from now or next week that there has been some work taking place?"

               From an administrator side or the DEI person, let's say they bring in a third party to come and do some of that PD that you discussed earlier. What are some things that should happen in between? Let's get a little bit more specific. Let's say we do some microaggressions work, or maybe some implicit bias training or stereotypes, something centered around implicit bias. What happens after that person that comes in and does the PD, what happens afterwards?

Rajneet Goomer:

You have to continue the conversation. You have to continue the conversation at a district level, at a school building level, department level, however your school is structured, your district is structured because we now need to take that information and have our staff correlate it and tie it to what's happening in the schools, in their classrooms every day. We know that diversity and DEI work is not all just about learning what those terms are. It's about empathy and perspective taking. So how do we take that information and then turn it into something they'd be able to understand the perspective that someone might go through and what that means or the students in the classroom? I was talking to someone earlier today about the fact that when I talk about St Patrick's Day, there may be a student who went home and didn't have the leprechaun come home or went home at Christmas and couldn't have Santa bring a gift or Santa doesn't come to their house.

               And oftentimes you may hear a teacher saying but talking about it is something that we should do because students celebrate it, et cetera. But as educators, our job is to make our students feel safe. And if that one student in your classroom says, "Santa didn't come to my house" or "[inaudible 00:04:55] me a laptop" or "I didn't have a leprechaun come to the house. How come they didn't come to my house?" Our empathy and our perspective-taking, we should feel that, as educators, because we want all of our kids to feel safe and happy and loved. And I think bringing it to that level is something that is so important once we do these like high level professional development trainings.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Yeah. And the thing I like that you said is, because this week someone pinched me because I didn't have on green. And I'm like, I don't celebrate St. Patrick's Day. I didn't even know today was the day, to be honest with you. I had no clue that today was the day because it's not something that I celebrate or it's not on my radar. And like you say, you're going to have students that are going to be in similar situations and it happens a lot in Christmas as well. So I'm glad that you brought those up. What are some things that you would teach a teacher to make it more of an inclusive environment for students when it comes to these holidays? Because it's like, do we not talk about these holidays? Do we not celebrate these holidays because we know that there's going to be some students that are going to feel left out? So what are your suggestions as far as what do we do on these days?

Rajneet Goomer:

I think it's unrealistic to not talk about it. And we don't want to say, hey, don't talk about anything because we know that's also not being equitable and inclusive, we need to celebrate the differences and the different cultures that are out there. I think there's a difference when we are emphasizing that or making that the experience of students. So for example, my kindergartner came home yesterday and said, "Well, why didn't a leprechaun come to our house?" I said, "Well, we don't do that." Right? And he came to school and my son was like, "Yeah, we don't believe in that." He's in fourth grade, but it was a little bit of an uncomfortable conversation because here she is wanting something that her peers are getting and we don't do that, right? And part of it is because there was an emphasis in her classroom of building the trap and doing St. Patrick's activities, et cetera, which again is not to take away from learning about that. But then are you doing that to the same level for other cultures and other holidays?

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Rajneet Goomer:

So that, for example, I'm [inaudible 00:07:09] when it is Diwali or Vaisakhi, which are holidays we celebrate, are you doing that as well? So someone else will go home with information about that. And I think that's the part that we have to remember is we don't want to make it talk about nothing because that's not realistic nor is it appropriate to build the worldview of our students, but we have to watch the level of what we're doing it at and the emphasis we're putting on it. And almost even just like commercialism, more of the commercialism part of it, of like building the St. Patrick's hat or the trap. So I think it's finding that balance with what we're introducing and making it diverse and also making it relevant to the students that are in front of you.

Speaker 1:

Okay. And here's the question that I could see someone pushing back, and saying, "Well, you just asked me, well, will I put the same emphasis in St. Patrick's Day as other cultural events, but I'm a cultural outsider, like I don't celebrate Diwali. And so how do I bring in a Chinese New Year or something else that I do not celebrate personally in that same conversation? I don't know how to do that because it's not part of my culture, is not something that I would do on my own."

Rajneet Goomer:

And that's a great question. And I think that's part of why we don't do it is because there's a lack of comfortability with other cultures because that isn't their experience. I think that's when administrators need to come in and provide those resources and avenues to feel comfortable with that. Again, if we're looking at our class each year and really having them feel heard and seen, we would really be focusing on the holidays and cultures that are in our classroom. Families are always willing to come and talk. They will come in and talk every day if they could about their cultures and what happens at home. And so they're a great resource as well.

               A lot of times we talk about the hopes and dreams kids have in the beginning of the school year or those interviews that we do about themselves and ask their families about themselves, all about me. It's a great time to delve into some of those more cultural, diverse topics to learn about your children and your families in front of you. And that can then spark you to be able to get resources or have them come in as guest speakers.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. And I appreciate when we involve our communities and ask them, or provide opportunities for them to come in and present and teach a lesson. The caveat that I like to give out in those situations is sometimes we hand it off. This is one less lesson that I have to teach or that I have to plan for. And we put the burden on a parent or a student or community member, and there's no ownership or collaboration between the teacher and whoever's providing this cultural experience. I always say, I love that you're going to bring someone in that's a cultural insider. This is what they celebrate. This is something they grew up celebrating. However, I want you to take some time to do some research and work with that individual, as opposed to just saying, "Okay, show up on Thursday at 3:00 and you have 45 minutes." And I'd say, well, how can you take some ownership and learn as well with the students and see what you can do to help them create a lesson plan.

               A lot of the times when we have folks that come in that are a parent, for example, they may not be teachers. They may not have a teaching background. So they got to deal with the classroom management side of things, and then they got to try to present. And it's a great experience, but I think it could be so much better.

Rajneet Goomer:

Absolutely. And I think that I completely agree with you. And I think that goes back to the point of it can't be a one-stop thing, right? Just like when we bring outside presenters, it's almost like you bring an outside trainer, right, into your classroom [inaudible 00:11:11] things, and where that comes in with the administrator or your subject coaches, curriculum coaches to support you in that work, right? Really we have these ELA coaches, math coaches, tech coaches, et cetera. Well, let's build them up to be able to say like, "Hey, here are some amazing websites that have this information," because there's so much information out there, right? Just even Learning for Justice is an amazing organization for teachers in terms of resources and lesson plans on a variety of subjects and cultures.

Speaker 1:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. And so that's why I say, take some ownership. And do some research and say, "Listen, let's meet on next week and let's talk about this lesson, what this looks like for the classroom for an hour." And then you show up for that meeting and say, "This is what I learned. I did some research on Diwali. And these are some of the things that I learned. Is this similar to your experiences? What are your thoughts on this?" And then create the lesson together. But like I said, I've seen folks where teachers will say, if you want black history, or if you want Chinese New Year, if you want native American day or any of these types of things, it's on you. You need to come to come to school, which may make a parent have to take time off work. Again, they're spending hours creating a lesson and again, not having a teaching background, it's just, I think it could be so much better. So I'm glad that you brought that up.

               I want to shift back to our diversity, equity, inclusion officers, because here's a question I have if I am looking to bring in because I think sometimes our DEI folks, they keep saying the same things over and over again. And it seems like a constant battle. And I'll have someone will call me or we connect on Zoom and they're like, "Man, I've been teaching or trying to talk about, we have equity challenges that we need to address. No one's listening to me. Can you come in and basically say the same thing and we can try to get folks on board." If you are in a similar situation, what would you ask the facilitator that's going to come in and provide this training? What would be your expectations for when the session is over? What would you tell the trainer that you need to cover these things? Or this is how I would like to see it done. Do you have any thoughts in that area?

Rajneet Goomer:

I think anytime that a trainer comes in, they have to sit down with the people who are working on equity in the district to see where they are in that perspective to be able to customize the training. If you've done a little bit of work on the terms, microaggressions, anti-racism, unconscious bias, then you don't want the trainers come in and redo that, you want them to take it to the next level. And I think that then intertwining that with what the district has already done, sort of then gives teachers off, Oh, wait, we've already done this. Like maybe we are on the right path to get there. I think that's a big part of it. In terms of DEI folks, always feeling like they're going in circles in some ways, I think it's important at that point for administration above that DEI person, the superintendent down to set that expectation that this is what we're doing.

               And I think that's a difficult part when you're doing this work is if it's not clearly supported from the top down, that's when that struggle happens a little bit. It has to be part of the vision and mission. There has to be a strategic plan. We build strategic plans about everything. There has to be strategic plan around the diversity work, not just about the training, but like, how are we building this into curriculum? How are we building this into the systems that we have? Are we reviewing our policies? Are we looking at our disciplinary and positions and bringing in some restorative justice? Are we looking at how we work with children with trauma since we're seeing more of that where our ELL students, or there's so many pieces to it that have to be done other than just the training that are often like left or done in silos. And this is not work that can be done in silos. It's a lens, it's a mindset.

Speaker 1:

Okay. And the other thing that I want to touch on is, and I love that you mentioned that your superintendents need to be involved as well because often our diversity equity inclusion positions don't have hiring and firing authority, so we can't necessarily make teachers do certain things. We can highly encouraged and try to provide examples as to why they need to look at maybe doing more culturally responsive activities or providing that, some classroom audits and things like that. But at the end of the day, it's up to the teacher. But when you have like the supervisors or the superintendent or the principal comes in and reinforces the work that you're doing and says, "This is the direction that we're going, you need to comply," or "These changes need to happen," I think that is so pivotal in making change on a long-term basis.

Rajneet Goomer:

Yes. And I think to go to your point in terms of that, we do mentoring for new teachers, we coach new teachers, starting with the vision and mission and putting it out there with our new teachers coming in, that this is what we believe and where we stand with this and raising them with that mindset, it goes a long way. On top of that, I think coaching and mentoring of any staff member at any level is so important. So if we see something happening, we need to be able to address that and have those conversations and support them in that work. A lot of what I believe is the difficult part is staff not having experiences with other cultures or with this information, again, that perspective taking our empathy because they don't always have the same experiences for a variety of reasons. Is it helping them understand? Giving them information, giving them education because a lot of times that's what they need.

Speaker 1:

So what's the information? What are some of the resources you would recommend if I'm a new teacher, or if I'm a teacher that's starting this equity journey, where are some of your go-to resources that you would send them to, to help them with that training and support that they need?

Rajneet Goomer:

I think that the resources first have to come from the district and what they're doing. So the first resource is what does the district stand for? I think you have to go through some of those first level pieces of DEI, what are these terms, et cetera. How does relate to me in the classroom? In some districts that mentoring program is ongoing. So as you talk about lesson planning, for example, and review lesson plans in one meeting, okay, well, what does that accommodation look like? What does the differentiation look like? Because remember DEI, isn't just about culture and religion and ethnicity, it's also about ability and gender identity and all those pieces. So when I go and look at a lesson plan, am I putting to the forefront, the differentiation and accommodations? Am I providing resources that do not marginalize someone or that we can use our current curriculum and have a conversation about what's happening in that curriculum that may be more DEI focused conversation.

               There was an article in one of the Ed Leadership magazines recently about seeing curriculum with fresh eyes. And basically talking about how we have resources already in our curriculum, and talking specifically about Lord of the Flies in that article. And there's so much that happens in there that is relevant to understanding, equity and DEI work that you can just have those conversations infused into the work you already have and the resources you already have in your curriculum. So I think doing those pieces with your first year teachers or your new teachers, so that they build that lens while they're going through the process and learning the district is so important.

Speaker 1:

Okay, I got you. Okay. So now the district has created these resources and they're providing this information and training, what outside of the district, or would you even bring in any resources from outside of the district to further enhance the learning?

Rajneet Goomer:

Part of the biggest thing is resources and it doesn't mean that I just give them a multicultural library and say, "Hey, here use this," but I'm going to bring in learning for justice curriculum. I'm going to start... They have so many great programs that you can build into your curriculum. The good thing is in New Jersey, the legislation just came out that in September, we have to have diversity equity infused into all of our subjects [inaudible 00:19:57] about it. So I think that's going to allow districts to really look at their curriculum and infuse some of those things. It's a great time to go to all of these organizations. So talking about, the Asian-American, the [inaudible 00:20:12] American sort of climate that we're in now, the AAJC, the Asian-American Justice Commission also has a K-12 curriculum for Asian Americans.

               So there's a lot out there. It's just a matter of us as administrators finding it and providing it, but also teaching our staff how to use it and infusing it into the curriculum. So again, it's not another thing for teachers to do. We know teachers have so much already nowadays to do so it should never be a separate initiative, but a part of what they already do.

Speaker 1:

Okay. And I hear what you're saying and I can hear teachers saying, "Oh, well, that sounds all great. And I hear that Rajneet is saying, Oh, it's not an add on, this is not additional work, but it sounded just like it was additional work." So how do we create this environment? How do we create an understanding with our teachers, that this is actually not extra work? How do you provide, because you're going to still get pushed back in these in these situations where like, I hear what you're saying, but you just said Google, you said go to teach the Justice for Learning. There's all these different places you just named. I had never heard of any of those things and I have absolutely no clue. I grew up in an all white area. I don't have a lot of experience working with a diverse population. I don't know where to get started. It just sounds like more work. How do you respond to that?

Rajneet Goomer:

I think we have to take it in the same vein that we bring in any curriculum. We choose a curriculum for a subject and we train our staff on it and specifically. So if I'm going to bring in these resources and I want my staff to use it, I have to have some training around how to use it. I'm also going to make sure it's not like a, Oh, do you have your DEI block and your schedule. You have morning meeting. What kind of questions are you asking? Here's some things you can talk about when you're doing social studies, let's look at your library selection. Like, okay, this is the unit you're doing this month. Where is the book that you can bring in, or a person you can bring in that has done something that notable in history that you can talk about instead of this other person. So I think it's just learning to replace things.

               And yes, we don't want our teachers to do this work on by themselves in terms of resources, just like we would not want them to do for any other subject. That's where our administration really has to come in and provide the support and this training on how to use it.

Speaker 1:

Okay. Yeah. And the support has to be very intentional. And I think you had mentioned earlier, it has to be very specific as well. You bring it in general stuff across the board. And again, it does not necessarily mean it's going to match up with the uniqueness of a classroom, of a school, and their demographics as well. If you were to say, okay, maybe take some small steps as a diversity equity inclusion officer. I think sometimes when these positions get hired and a district says, "We need to get someone in here right away because we have all these challenges," but then they expect all of these changes to occur within a short frame period of time.

               If I'm new to my position as a DEI, what are some verbiage maybe that you would say, or how does someone who just got a new position? So, there's still that I'm new, I don't have a lot of clout, but I'm getting these expectations that I think are unrealistic within a timeframe. If I'm in that position, what are some suggestions you would make to, how do I make an understanding to my superintendent, my boss, whoever is my immediate supervisor, how do I help them understand that this takes time?

Rajneet Goomer:

It's a good question. I think that you have to sit down with whoever your superior is, your supervisor is and say, "If we want to do this right, then we have to do this in a systematic way. That's going to take longer than a few months you want me to do this." And again, equity work is never over. There's no end game, but there's no end point that you can again, check it off and say, we're done with this. It's ongoing and continuous. I would approach it in the vein of I'm coming here to support and do this work and build an inclusive culture, not just for students, but for our staff as well and our community, in order for me to do that, I have to build relationships. So let me start there. Let me talk to each, have my focus groups, let me do like a culture and climate survey. Let me really just build relationships with the buildings and staff. Then if I have that relationship, I'm able to do this work because this work isn't easy to do this work with.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. It's I always say equity work is not easy, it's supposed to be hard. And that's the piece that separates a lot of people from doing this work or advocacy work because it's like, well, I'm going to get pushed back or who am I? And that confidence isn't necessarily there. If I am an aspiring DEI person and let's say I want to get myself in a position to be able to apply and be qualified. What are some of the things that you would suggest someone needs to start working on now, so that they can be prepared to start applying for these positions? What are some things that they should be doing maybe to help themselves get in line with being capable or able to do these positions?

Rajneet Goomer:

I think that anybody that's doing DEI work, they have to address their own biases, et cetera, and understand that for themselves because we all have them. We all have biases and stereotypes, but if I am aware of them and know them so that I can work around them and have that empathy and perspective taking, then I can really dive into work and support others. So I think that that's the first thing. You have to have your own education and learn. You have to have a passion for this work, like you said. Experiences are important, but not everybody can have them. So how do I gain that perspective? Am I talking to other people? There's a great activity about sort of like your circle of friends and family and who you surround yourself with.

               And normally you surround yourself with people that are just like you, just sort of happens that way. Well, let me look at that and maybe I'm going to go and watch a movie with a different lead character or a different culture, or maybe I'm going to make sure I diversify my food intake, which again is all very surface level, but it's a start to have those experiences of something different. Have those conversations with colleagues to understand, start reading those books, go to trainings, and then it's, okay now I've got all of this. What does that mean for me? What do I see in my classroom? What do I see in my school? Let me work on building that culture in my classroom and doing those pieces and then working outwards from there. Ultimately in order to do this work, you have to have a systems perspective, building that is also important. And how do I get there? And what does this mean for everybody?

               Again, it's not just about curriculum. It's not just about policies. It's not just about racism and being called names. There's so many pieces to it. So you also have to get that experience of knowing other parts of being in education, to be able to do that work.

Speaker 1:

Got it. Okay, Rajneet, this has definitely been an honor to be able to meet you and speak to you about this. I consider you as providing a voice and lead in equity. What is one final word of advice that you can provide to our listeners?

Rajneet Goomer:

One word is hard for me. No matter how hard the work is, don't ever be afraid to speak up and be a disruptor. It may not turn into what you want, but you've started that conversation. You've started that thinking and that's the most important thing.

Speaker 1:

Love it. If we got some folks that want to connect with you, what's the best way to reach out online?

Rajneet Goomer:

So my Twitter handle is @rpkgoomer and also on LinkedIn, you can reach me at Rajneet Pimmi Kaur Goomer.

Speaker 1:

I'll link it up in the show notes as well so folks can get access to it, but definitely, definitely appreciate your time. It has truly been a pleasure.

Rajneet Goomer:

Thank you. I really enjoyed it. I really appreciated having some time with you and being able to talk with you.

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