Speaker 1:

Welcome advocates, to another episode of the Leading Equity Podcast, a podcast that focuses on supporting educators with the tools and resources necessary to ensure equity at their school.

               Today, I've got a special guest with me, Dr. Naima Duncan. So without further ado, Dr. Duncan, Naima, thank you so much for joining us today.

Dr. Naima Duncan:

Oh, you're welcome. Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1:

The pleasure is always mine. I'm looking forward to our conversation. I came across your dissertation, and I can't remember the title of it, but the subject matter was in regards to school readiness. I recognized that I haven't covered this topic and so I wanted to bring you on as an expert. I want to chat with you about it.

               But, before we get into the topic, I would love for you to share with our audience a little bit about yourself and what you currently do.

Dr. Naima Duncan:

Oh, well I have been an educator for over 20-something years. I taught preschool for 15 of those years, I believe, and went on to become an education supervisor, and then a director of early childhood department in New York. And then, [inaudible 00:01:11] assistant principle in Camden City, New Jersey. And honestly, charged with running the building, but also coaching and mentoring teachers and preschool ed. We have preschoolers and we have kindergarten this year.

Speaker 1:

Nice. Okay. Let's start with, I want to talk about school readiness and what that looks like. So if you can, I would love for you to start with defining what school readiness is. For children entering kindergarten, what are the attributes associated with school readiness?

Dr. Naima Duncan:

So for kindergartners, children entering kindergarten should have a few important skills. One of the main skills that they should have is social emotional skills. So that means are they able to self regulate, are they able to carry a conversation between their peers and the adults in the room, are they able to take turns, are they able to problem solve, are they able to work with others in the classroom. They're also expected to have some academic skills, such as counting, pre-writing skills, pre-reading skills, recognizing basic shapes, learning how to just basically reading a book, that kind of thing.

               We've noticed, over the years, that those kindergarten readiness skills have become more and more on the academic side for preschoolers, rather than the social emotional side.

Speaker 1:

Okay. So there's been a lot more stress on academics. I guess, what is your guess why things have been shifting over? Because I know from, let's say from first grade to 12th grade, there has been a lot of emphasis on social emotional learning. I'm just curious, as far as our early childhood programs, how come? You would think that it would be stressed as well. But, what is maybe some of the things that you're seeing, when it comes to there's more emphasis on the academic side?

Dr. Naima Duncan:

Yeah. Back in the day, when the whole No Child Left Behind Act came, they were really pressured, from school districts, to make sure that they are getting their children ready for academic success. And, that trickled all the way down to preschool. That meant that preschoolers were expected to be more academically ready for kindergarten, versus the social emotional part. That's where that all came from, it just went to the wayside.

               And then, preschool teachers were really feeling the pressures. So they were having children sit down for long periods of time, trying to get them to write, and trying to attend to these tasks that they were not either physically ready for or social emotionally ready for. So we started seeing a high influx of referrals to the child study team, for behavior issues because they were not able to sit, they were not able to attend to tasks, a multitude of things. And, if they were in a low income community, we saw that those particular children were having a really hard time dealing with the stressors of just being in that environment. And then, coming into the school and having to deal with all they were going through at home, and then expected to function at a normal level in the preschool classroom.

               So essentially, there was just no supports for teachers, at all. Not for teachers, for the students or for the parents. So school districts really had to figure that out, what is going on and how can we best support these children and these teachers, for facing these challenging years. So that's where it all came from.

Speaker 1:

Okay, okay. Thank you for that. So now, I'm curious because when we think about COVID-19, and you said the children had to sit still in the classroom. I've come across some kindergarten classrooms where the work that they're getting online, like Zoom and Google Classroom, and those kind of things, requires them to sit for four or five hours in front of a computer these days.

               Have you seen something similar in your capacity? And, how does that necessarily translate into a child's ability, especially at five or six years old, to be able to sit in front of a computer these days, for such extended amount of time?

Dr. Naima Duncan:

That is a good question. We're now having to actually tell parents, well I would say share with parents, what's developmentally appropriate for their young learner. And, that even before COVID-19 hit, that too much screen time is just not appropriate. But now that we're here, we have to figure out a way where they're getting their lessons from teachers, but at the same time, they continue their lessons when they're logged off.

               We really had to have a heart-to-heart conversation with parents and really just make them understand that, when children are logged on for ... Let's say they're logged on for kindergarten, for their [inaudible 00:06:53] lessons, or their small group lessons, whatever it is, that they have those lessons, they have to have an environment where it's either quiet, it's conducive to learning. And because they're home, it's really hard to get them to cooperate sometimes. So it's as if we have a whole set of new norms, of being at home and understanding that, even though you're home, it's still school.

               We had some complaints in the beginning of the school, from parents. We're expecting our children to be with the teacher for five hours a day. And we really have to double back, as the leaders of the school and say, "Listen, we understand, but it's not like they're physically at school. So when they're logged off with you, this is the schedule. They should be working on this, that and the third." And really, the teachers are charged in the mornings, to have a family meeting with their parents, and just have a talk with them and lay down the expectations, what they can do to support.

               But, we are not requiring our students to sit down for long, long periods of time. It's just not developmentally appropriate. And then, nor will we ever concede to that. That's not something that we're doing, with our preschoolers or with our kindergartners. We're just not doing it.

Speaker 1:

Well, good for you. Thank you for leading by example. That's what's up. That's good stuff. Like I said, it's come across my way. People have reached out to me and said, "Man, this kindergarten teacher got my son or my daughter sitting in front of a computer for six hours. What do you suggest?" And, I try to give some tips but having an expert on this podcast with me is helpful. So I appreciate you sharing your perspective and that's not something that y'all do.

Dr. Naima Duncan:

No. You know what, that screen fatigue is for real. Even as adults, when we're having professional development or webinars, our brain gets tired. There is no way. And actually, me and the other educators were talking, our eyes start twitching, we have headaches and that kind of thing. We just can't do that to our young learners.

               But, I think it's putting the ownership on parents. When they log off, what should they be doing and really going through that schedule. They should be doing this, should do that, so it's really putting the ownership back on them. And then, having our teachers check in, how did that lesson go when we logged off, just having that accountability factor for our parents. But yeah, we're not having them do that.

Speaker 1:

Okay. Okay. One of the things that we talked about earlier, we alluded to earlier in our conversation was behavior and how behavior can impact a student's readiness. I'd love for you to talk about how there is that relation between behavior and school readiness. Could you share some insight there? Can impact a student's readiness ...

Dr. Naima Duncan:

So, behavior impacts a student's readiness when ... They're more likely to be expelled, or suspended or needing extra support services. And then, eventually if they don't get help for it, it could lead to later life challenges such as delinquency, substance abuse problems. It's just so important for teachers, the school district to really acknowledge that children who are experiencing some challenging behaviors, or behavior problems in general, they have to be addressed early and from all angles. From the teacher's point of view, from the parent's point of view, from the school's point of view. They really have to invest in extra curricular that really supports students to achieve better behaviors. Whether that's through problem solving, self regulation skills, those kinds of things. We need a support from schools to be able to do that.

               But, that's what it eventually leads to. Just, they never get the support to thrive in school, they're generally just held back. And, teachers tend to not have those high expectations for them, they tend to give up on those children. And, once you give up on children, they're really not going to learn because you have to have that positive relationship with a child, with a student, to be able to thrive.

               Yeah. The kids don't get the supports, the teachers don't get the supports, it could just lead to the child being stifled, and not growing and thriving in the education system.

Speaker 1:

That's such a huge point because that's often missed. I've seen kids, at six years old, being escorted out with handcuffs because their behavior is not correct or they're not complying, or whatever it is that they're being accused of. I just think sometimes, when we can have a little bit more compassion to our students, and when we provide more empathy, and we start thinking about what message is this child to display to me with their behavior. Are they trying to seek attention? Do they want or need something else? But sometimes, we just jump to, "I'm having a rough day and this kid is contributing to my rough day." So as a result, we end up treating a student a certain way.

               If that is the theme throughout the school, where this child has been labeled as a "troublemaker," then that clearly does not create a positive environment. So now, this child, are they going to be ready to enter into the next grade level, because of the way that they've been treated.

Dr. Naima Duncan:

That's so important. That's so important.

               I think there's one thing that I always tell teachers who get frustrated, because they actually feel ... I know, I used to be a teacher and I've dealt with students. It's notorious for the supervisors to put challenging behaviors in my classroom. I do understand that teachers feel like the behavior is directed to them, like it's personal, but it's not. That child actually might have some emotional baggage, some language barriers, it could be a multitude of things. And really, you have to navigate through this maze and try to be intentional in building a positive relationship with that child, and try to create some kind of connection with their family, to speak to the principle or whoever it is that, "I need help, I need support with dealing with this child."

               We just have to have those high expectations that we would for any other child, for that child that's displaying difficult behaviors. It's so important.

Speaker 1:

Okay. You're dropping some nuggets today. It's exciting because you're exactly right.

               Now, I want to get into some data. It doesn't necessarily have to be statistics, but more of what you are seeing, when it comes to whose ready and whose not ready. What are some of the trends, if you will, that comes across your purview when it comes to whose ready and whose not ready?

Dr. Naima Duncan:

So generally, from what I see of all my years in this field, is Black boys are generally labeled as not ready. That not ready part comes with lack of attention skills. They're not able to sit, disrespectful, aggressive, all of those labels instead of seeing that the child might be an independent thinker or that they are expressive, those kinds of things. I'm really seeing it in Black boys.

               Sometimes, it's just that given up component that I talked about earlier, is associated with them. I think that there's got to be a level of understanding that child, really understanding, really seeing that child as a human being and as a person. And, seeing that these are the kinds of things that this child would benefit from in the classroom and let me try to cater to those things, not just casting that child off to the side.

               I'm definitely seeing it with Black boys, definitely seeing it with children who are speaking another language. Because that's a barrier, in itself, and it's just very hard for them to communicate their needs and their wants. So those are the two main contributes to children not being ready, those particular sub-groups.

Speaker 1:

So Black boys, and also students who's first language is not language are the two students that you're seeing come across as not being ready?

Dr. Naima Duncan:

Right.

Speaker 1:

Wow, okay. Let's flip things over. Keeping that in mind, what are some suggestions or some strategies that we can utilize to try to boost those numbers? How do we get our Black boys more prepared? Or, how do we get our students whose first language which is not English, how do we support them in a way so that we do increases those numbers?

Dr. Naima Duncan:

Again, I think that anybody involved in education needs to understand that upholding high standards and high expectations to any child, regardless of what their background is, is going to be key to their academic success in later schooling.

               Also, schools need to utilize that social emotional component curricular with our students. Students like that need to understand, again, how to problem solve, how to get along with others, how to control their impulses, how to communicate. And, checking in with their feelings, there has to be a component where children, every single day, are asked to check in with their feelings. Because when they're coming home, they might feel one way, when they come to school, they might feel another. But, it's so important to check in with their feelings because, again, children are human beings, just they're little people. They have feelings, just like we do.

               I also think for that positive relationship component to really thrive, schools really should invest in keeping that teacher child ratio low so that they can definitely have those opportunities to sit down with that child, and go ahead and build that relationship.

               There also has to be a strong component of parent engagement. See, most children who are going through challenge behaviors, Black boys or children who are speaking another language, they're getting those phone calls and they're not the best phone calls. They're negative. But, it's important to focus on those high impact parent engagement pieces, like those positive phone calls, inviting the parent in. If there's Black males in that child's life, having them being a part of the school community somehow. Whether that's volunteering to control traffic for the day, or just greeting other dads or whatever it is. But, really inviting the family or that parent into the school community in a welcoming environment. That, in turn, will get the parents or their families more engaged and more engaged in their child's learning. They're taking it more seriously.

               Because so many times, their children are just labeled and they're not looking forward to those school phone calls. They're not looking forward to coming to the school because they've got a parent teacher conference and they know all the bad things that they're going to hear. So starting off with something positive and inviting them into the school in a meaningful and intentional way will boost a child's readiness for school.

Speaker 1:

Naima, it has truly been a pleasure talking to you today. I consider you as providing a voice in leading equity. Can you give us one final word of advice, to our listeners?

Dr. Naima Duncan:

One final word that I will say to parents because again, parents are the key. But, I will say really be fully committed to engaging with the school community, becoming involved and really helping your child in their education process. So not just listening to your child, but having your child talk to you, and engaging them in not just the what questions like, "What color is that or what number is that?" And, although that what question is an important memory skill, but to really practice those other skills like those evaluation skills and those analytical skills. "What did you think of that? And, why did you say that? How did you know that was the first letter of your name?" Just really asking those how and why questions.

               Because when you teach children very early, especially at home, to not just talk and to talk about their feelings, but you're teaching them to critically think, to think about their thinking process. Those are skills you want to develop very, very early. Once you develop those skills very, very early from home, they come in already ready for school. So I would say that, for parents.

               And for teachers, I would say my one word for them ... Well, really two words. It's to continue to have high expectations for their students, that is so key. Because without high expectations and those high standards, students won't work. They'll just, "The teacher doesn't expect anything out of me or they think that I'm bad." But, if a teacher's really invested in their children and their students, they're going to learn for sure. So to continue to have those high expectations, no matter what background, not matter what the child did the day previously, not matter what challenging behavior. I don't care if they flipped over a table the day before. Continue to have those high expectations for each of those children because in those communities where they really need it, when they really need to feel like they are somebody, they're going to lean on their teachers for that.

               That would be my few words, for parents and teachers of young learners.

Speaker 1:

Okay. If we have some folks that want to connect with you, reach out to you online, what's the best way?

Dr. Naima Duncan:

Probably through LinkedIn.

Speaker 1:

Okay.

Dr. Naima Duncan:

Probably through LinkedIn would probably be best. I'm not too sure how you found my information, actually, because it's not like I have a website or anything like that. But, I am part of Camden City School District. I am the assistant principle over at Cream School. I guess that would be one way to get in touch with me.

Speaker 1:

Okay. Well, I'll put a link to your LinkedIn profile so folks can reach out to you if they have some questions, in our show notes.

               Dr. Duncan, it has truly been a pleasure speaking with you today. Thank you so much for providing so much insight for our early childhood folks, so we appreciate your time.

Dr. Naima Duncan:

Thank you so much for having me, I appreciate it.

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