Sheldon Eakins:

Welcome advocates to another episode of the Leading Equity podcast, a podcast that focuses on supporting educators with the tools and resources necessary to ensure equity at their schools. Today's special guest is Mr. Johnny Jackson. He is the author of Meditating Gun Runner Speaking Part One: A Black Male Journey Teaching In South Korea, out of the Educational Studies Journal. So without further ado, Johnny, thank you so much for joining us today.

Mr. Johnny Jackson:

Oh, thank you. Thank you. I'm glad to be here.

Sheldon Eakins:

Pleasure is always mine. And so, I'm excited to get into today's topic. We're going to discuss teaching abroad and maybe even be able to have an opportunity to kind of relate what that looks like or how that experience prepared you for your time here in the United States, teaching in the states. But before we get into that, I'd love for you to share a little bit about yourself and what you currently do.

Mr. Johnny Jackson:

Sure. So my name is Johnny Jackson. My pronouns are he and his and I currently work as diversity and equity supervisor for Marion City Schools, where I kind of work on practices and policies that are really trying to highlight the importance of diversity and equity and inclusion and belonging for students and families in our district. Prior to this, I was teaching in South Korea at a private university where I was teaching preschool and kindergarten pre-service teachers and teaching them... I've used black literature to engage them. I also use different multicultural pedagogies to engage them as well. So I'm super excited to be here, to talk a little bit about my article, but also just delve into this idea of teaching abroad as a black male and also as someone who deeply cares about equity and education.

Sheldon Eakins:

All right, well, let's do it. Here's my first question is literally the first question on your article, which is what does it mean to teach while black and male in South Korea?

Mr. Johnny Jackson:

Sure. That's such a good question. When I was writing this particular article, I thought about Carter G. Woods's time in the Philippines that really made me think I was reading some of the work that he was doing. And it made me think about what were some of the highlights of my journey in Korea. I was teaching at a school of education that prepares elementary school educators. And I learned a lot about how my students saw black people from the media that they were kind of consuming and from what they were listening to. And that really made me think about what it meant to be black and male and Korea. So the first thing I really think about is the level of respect that teachers get. I did have a certain level of respect because I was teaching in a Korean university. So in my community, the Korean community I was living in, I felt like they gave me a lot of deep respect.

               There's another thing that was really happening. This was around the time of Barack Obama was president. So this was like a really tsunami of people wanting to learn more about blackness and black people, black culture. So that was one of the waves that I feel like I was riding on when I was living in Korea at that time. And I'd say the last thing is like the images of black males in the media was a really big thing. Some of my students would talk about like what it means to be a gangster with me, or they talk a little bit about like hiphop music or their perceptions of American black people, by ways of what movies they had watched. And I felt like I was competing with the respect that they would give to just any teacher, right? Also, there's Barack Obama and that tsunami that's happening. But then there's also these narratives about what a black male is in America. So those are like competing narratives that I felt that I was always under as I was living in South Korea as a teacher, a teacher educator.

Sheldon Eakins:

So what was that like? Because my thing is, it sounds like you... Which is understandable is you got hit with a bunch of stereotypes. You have a group of people that haven't had a lot of interaction with black folks. And so, like you said, during this timeframe, you got Barack Obama, black president in the United States. Folks know you're from the US. What was that like? Did you feel like you had to spend a lot of your time debunking stereotypes? Were there a lot of microaggressions that you were experiencing? What was some of those like personal experiences that you had and what were you doing to kind of navigate through that?

Mr. Johnny Jackson:

Yeah, sure. So the microaggressions that I felt were felt like from the cultural groups, like the white American cultural groups that were there, the notion of asking, like how did you get this job? Or what are your qualifications for this particular job? That was like a really... It was an interesting thing to navigate there. Those type of microaggressions.

               The other piece of this is I remember having students because this was popular in Japan at the time, teachers were like printing Barack Obama, I think it was his inaugural address. Like they were printing that and having students read that. I remember doing that activity with some of my students to get them a framework for like how this highly successful black male was kind of navigating the world. And that was really a hit because it was such a popular thing at the time, but there's then me being a professional in a setting where my university only had me as a black male teaching. That was really tricky to navigate because I didn't have a lot of people that looked like me, but in the city that I was living in [inaudible 00:06:04], we did have a group of African Americans who lived there.

               And I found myself getting together with them weekly to talk a little bit about the shared experiences that we would have. Different people were teaching at university, or they teach at elementary school, or they were just tutoring. I felt like the microaggressions that I would incur, it made me really seek community even more. You know what I mean?

Sheldon Eakins:

Why did you get involved in that group? Like was that through the university or was that some... How did you get connected with the support group, I guess?

Mr. Johnny Jackson:

Sure, sure. So I was going to a Korean church at the time, and I just met other black folks who were living in my city there. And then we just decided to keep having conversation and we would share things like job, tutoring jobs, or we would share just like food together. We would talk a little bit about our own lived experiences. So it was really an organic thing that we kind of put together just to create community.

Sheldon Eakins:

Thank you. Now, here's my next question, because I don't know what the statistics are as far as black males in Korea teaching things, but I know in the United States, I think it's 3% for the United States, as far as black male representation. What would you say your experience in South Korea, what were some things that maybe helped prepare you for coming back to the states and just kind of working in the spaces that you work in now?

Mr. Johnny Jackson:

One of the things is I had lots of opportunities to develop as a teacher educator. Some of the camps that I taught were particularly like a multicultural education camp and the government of Korea, they sponsor these camps to basically help multicultural Korean students. So a student might be Korean and Thai or Korean and Filipino, and they'll sponsor these usually like four to six week camps to make sure that they feel included. I taught a few of those camps and that really helped me connect to students who were different, right? And these would be third through fifth graders. And so, I would be able to connect with those particular students, but then also connecting to pre-service students. So there'd be pre-service teachers and we would share different lessons together and do activities just to make kids feel like they could build community. So I say that was one thing that really prepared me to come back and think of, well, how do maybe white pre-service teachers need to be prepared to serve a growing number of diverse students in the US?

               The other thing is the Korean government at the time was really looking at multicultural education, but then also they have these summer learning modules that in-service teachers would apply for. And I had a chance to teach maybe three of those, and those would be about four to six weeks as well. So I feel Korea gave me multiple opportunities to teach pre-service teachers and in-service teachers and kind of get reps in like, get those reps around like what it means to be a teacher. I feel really fortunate for that experience. And I'd say the last thing is the type of respect level that I feel the Korean community gives teachers. That was something that allowed me to really think like, oh, this idea of me being a teacher or a teacher educator or administrator for the rest of my life, this could be something that would be really interesting to me. And I was going through this experience at age, I was about 24 to 26 when I first started. So that really enlightened me when I first started this journey.

Sheldon Eakins:

So the respect is also a big piece and I like that you brought that in as well. And ultimately here you are, you're in a position where you're doing diversity, equity, and inclusion. And so I, again, I'm glad when folks have these experiences and then that kind of helps transition into the work that they do as professionals. The next question that you had on your article, it talks about how does one black man's story decolonize the narrative of who teaches abroad? Tell me more about that.

Mr. Johnny Jackson:

Yeah, definitely. Part of when I was in grad school, I was looking at study abroad numbers and many African American students don't study abroad around like three basic things. There's the curriculum, there's the cost. And then there's the culture of study abroad. And then those who have, or do study abroad, they navigate those things. They have like a culture where maybe a faculty member will say like, "Hey, you should study abroad. And this is the reason why." They'll apply for like passport grants or other grants at their university. So they can study abroad or they'll have like a heritage seeking, like they'll go and study abroad in the Caribbean or Africa or other places that maybe have people of African descent.

               I think that when it comes to study abroad being in a space where African American, maybe pre-service teachers might see themselves, it's so key that we actually are explicit. Like, hey, you can go and teach abroad. And these are the particular experiences. What I mean by decolonization is not having one archetype of who can study abroad or teach abroad or even lead a study abroad. Right? And I hope that by writing this particular piece, that I give those different layered stories of how I am in my community and where I live, how I am in my classroom, and then how I am as someone who is engaging pre-service teachers around what it means to be African American and like challenging and growing them to think about a multicultural world that it doesn't hinge on anti-black stereotypes, right?

               So decolonization really is that, is like one, allowing black students and black people see themselves as like a part of the larger study abroad and travel abroad movement. And then also kind of sharing these stories of why you might experience anti-black racism. You also are going to experience other things that are going to give a certain type of self esteem. And this is what history books tell us about WB DeBoise, Angela Davis, and Julia Cooper and others who lived abroad and did some type of educational experience abroad, but then they were able to kind of connect their global travel to local things that they in the US. So that's what my decolonization journey wants to do.

Sheldon Eakins:

You touched on a topic that I was curious about when I was in college and even before I started doing this work, I was a kind of like a college... I don't want to call it advisor, but more of we helped high school kids get interest into college and took them on tours. And that was part of what we did. And I would always see a lot of these study abroad programs where you can do a semester, maybe even a year in various countries. And I didn't see a lot of representation with African countries and even the Caribbean areas as well. So you mentioned the heritage programs. I'm curious, what is that? What is the heritage program? How did you come across that?

Mr. Johnny Jackson:

Yeah, so that's such a great question. And as I was digging into a lot of the study abroad research, I really became interested in actually how Jewish students were able to do heritage seeking to Israel or how Asian American students might do heritage seeking back to China, Japan, or where maybe some of their ancestors came from. And I start finding these terms, they kept popping out. They kept saying heritage seeking. And I was like, oh, like it's such a fascinating term. Right? So I was like, well, what does that look like for people of African descent, if they're going to Brazil or Cuba or the Dominican or The Bahamas or the continent. Right?

               And I stumbled up on Dr. Cynthia Dillard's work at the University of Georgia. She leads these study abroad trips for students to go to Ghana. And there was one piece that she wrote about a couple African American women pre-service teachers that had experience in Ghana that was really transformative.

               And that's what really got me interested in like, oh, okay. How do black students, or even non-traditional say community college student who might be in their 30s or 40s, how do they experience a heritage seeking trip to a place like Ghana or Nigeria? So that really sent me on my quest to learn a little bit more and what the research is pointing to is often saying, like if you have a faculty member that can help you think about how to bring down that cost and how you feel connected to that particular program, and they can situate it in your journey back. And then say like, okay, this is how it lines up with your major, or this is how it lines up with your career. Or this is how it lines up with your civic duty. Then it really helps anchor many people of African descent in study abroad.

               So it's a really fascinating thing. And there's an organization called Diversity Abroad where they really do a lot of this work around transformative study abroad experiences for students of color, students with disabilities, LGBTQIA students. They really look at the whole scope of study of broad as a place where we can diversify. So it's a super exciting field that's really emerging.

Sheldon Eakins:

I wonder if our historically black colleges are tapped into these heritage programs. I went to HBCU, but again, I don't remember. I might have missed it. I'm not saying it didn't offer, but I don't remember seeing any heritage programs. And usually, like I said, when I used to do a lot of those college tours and things like that, it would be in a lot of countries in Asia, maybe some countries in Europe, but I didn't see a lot of our African diaspora represented when it came to these programs. So have you heard anything from our HBCUs at all?

Mr. Johnny Jackson:

Sure. So Howard University has aa absolutely phenomenal Frederick Douglas scholarship. And one of the places they're actually looking at is Frederick Douglas spent a lot of time in Ireland. And so they're kind of developing this different relationship between those Frederick Douglas scholars and Ireland. So they do a lot of really great work there. I also know that I worked in, let's say 2015, 2016, with Spellman and Morehouse. So students from there and they have a organization called Black Beyond Borders, which it's a really terrific organization that two students started. And we did a trip between Miami University and Spellman and Morehouse students to Argentina to learn a little bit more about the struggle of Afro-Argentine people to be visible. And it was just a phenomenal month long journey because it allowed us to connect with youth who are Afro Argentine and the LGBTQIA community.

               And just really think about what it means to be a black American, but what it means to be connected to a whole diaspora of people. Right? So Afro Argentine often face a lot of the same stigmas around being visible, housing and healthcare and education and human rights. And just like general things that we face, but not a lot of news coverage gets out there. So it was really great to be learning alongside HBCU students to understand a different perspective of what it means to be a person of African descent.

               So I say like Howard, Spellman, Morehouse are doing some other cool things, and I'm sure there's other HBCUs that are doing some really great things. I hope that with the new Build Back Better funds that people are getting and different campuses are getting, that those campuses can continue to internationalize because we do see many international students studying abroad at HBCUs, especially in the past, African heads of state and Chinese heads of state have studied abroad at HBCUs. So I know that there's that long history. So you understand, it's actually like shaking the rug of history so we can kind of see what's under it.

Sheldon Eakins:

I like that. I like that. And thank you for sharing that because... And let me just throw this out there to the listeners. If you are on Twitter, tag me on a tweet if you know any heritage programs to study abroad. So I can retweet those, @SheldonLEakins is my Twitter handle, but feel free to tag. Do you have a Twitter handle, Johnny? Tag Johnny as well.

Mr. Johnny Jackson:

I don't. I don't. That's okay. I'll send you as much information as I can.

Sheldon Eakins:

Yeah, that'd be great. I want folks to know about these things. So I think that's important. I want to switch gears just for a moment, because I'm curious to know as far as South Korea, what were some of the equity challenges that you saw while you were there? Maybe some that... Because I know there's a lot of stuff that's global. Primarily my show, my audience is United States, north America, at least because I have a lot of folks in Canada that listen and there's a lot of similarities when it comes to equity challenges. Individual needs not being met. But I also recognize that for example, Korean educational system is a little different than what the United States, North America offers. So what were some of the things or challenges that you saw in equity while you're out there?

Mr. Johnny Jackson:

Sure. I'd say the first thing is low social economics students and families getting access, not only to curriculum, but also to resources. Resources being such a critical need for those particular students. And then those students that are at the intersection of being low socioeconomic. So they might be coming from more farming communities and coming into the city to get an education. If their parent is also a second language speaker of Korean, like there might be a barrier similar to in the US, right? Like if you're a second language speaker of English, there might be some barrier there. And then, I would say the third piece would be students with disabilities. Some of my professors from the University of Finley came to visit while I was there. And they were giving talks about access to curriculum, access to school for particular students with disability, and how to best serve students with disabilities to have one piece of rigorous curriculum.

               And then another piece not having a deficit view of students. So some similarities, but also some differences. I think that one of the things that I learned when I was in Korea, this was 2009 and 2011. This was during the time that the government was cutting teaching jobs. And my pre-service teachers actually, they were doing a lot of organizing. So we actually paused class for like six weeks. So they could actually go to Seoul and like protest and organize and that type of thing. And we were as faculty members supposed to be in solidarity. That as a young pre-service teacher and 24, that really made me think a lot about like how are we preparing teachers for their civic duties in a community? So that was another issue is around access to jobs, which now 2021 living in what we're calling the great resignation, I think there's some kind of like parallel conversations that are happening.

Sheldon Eakins:

So then what brought you back to the states? Just a little timeframe for you.

Mr. Johnny Jackson:

What brought me back this past time is I had a job opportunity here in the US. I was working at a university there and I had a job opportunity in my community to do what we call community voices. And it was kind of like training future community leaders in my community. And that was a really great opportunity. So I decided that I wanted to come back and I feel like every couple years I moved to South Korea to like get some experience and then I'll come back. It's just a really great place to grow as a person who wants to teach and learn about another culture.

Sheldon Eakins:

Johnny, I definitely appreciate your time and I consider you as providing a voice in leading equity. What is one final word of advice that you could provide to our listeners?

Mr. Johnny Jackson:

Learn as much as you can about your culture and another culture. I think that living in this particular time period, learning all you can and being in community with people, the more you're in community with people and the less distance that you have. I think it's going to be better, especially around conversations around critical race theory right now. I think it's critical to be in a community with critical thought leaders and then challenging your own bias as much as you can.

Sheldon Eakins:

All right. Well, if we have some folks that want to connect with you, what's the best way to reach you online?

Mr. Johnny Jackson:

Sure. The best way is through email as [email protected] org. So that's the best way to connect with me is through email. And maybe I can drop my email to you too and people can reach out.

Sheldon Eakins:

Yep. Most definitely. We'll leave links in the show notes as well. And like I said, if you're on Twitter, I got... My Twitter handle got hacked. It used to be Sheldon Eakins, but then like some Bitcoin folks came in and they just... I didn't have a two step, what do you call it thing? So that was on me, but yeah, I got hacked. So I got a new Twitter handle, @SheldonLEakins. So if anybody has any heritage study abroad stuff, please tag me so that we can share that out as well. And also, you can follow me if you aren't following me on my new handle.

               Johnny, it has truly been a pleasure. Johnny Jackson is the author of Meditating Gun Runner Speaking Part One: A Black Male Journey Teaching In South Korea, out of the Educational Studies Journal. Is there a part two, by the way? I'm curious. Can you send that to me?

Mr. Johnny Jackson:

Not yet. I haven't written part two, but I will. As soon as I do, I'll make sure I get it to you.

Sheldon Eakins:

Okay. Sounds good. Well, thank you again. It's truly been a pleasure.

Mr. Johnny Jackson:

Thank you so much.

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