Speaker 1:

Welcome, advocates, to another episode of The Leading Equity Podcast, a podcast that focuses on supporting educators with the tools and resources necessary to ensure equity at their schools. Today's special guest is Ms. Drea Weiner, and I'm very, very excited to have her on. She and I have interviewed before for another project. And so I'm glad to be able to have her on to the main podcast. This is going to be fun. So without further ado Drea, thank you so much for joining us today.

Drea Weiner:

Oh my goodness. I'm so excited to be here. I'm going to try to keep my thoughts organized, but spring is here finally in Michigan and I'm here for it. So yeah. I'm here to talk to women in STEM. I'm also super excited for that too.

Speaker 1:

This is going to be fun. You're pumped up. Folks, if you could see the smile. And she's excited. She's ready. All right. So before we get into our topic... and we're talking about women in STEM... could you share a little bit about yourself and what you currently do?

Drea Weiner:

Yeah. One, I'm a crazy cat lady. I'm just going to share the fun parts of that. It's been a cold winter of snuggles up in Michigan. So I adore cats. And what I do is that I am a MiSTEM Network Regional Director. So I cover seven counties in the northwest lower portion of the Mitten. For those who can see, it's this. Sheldon and I were talking about the Michigan hand trick. If you don't know, we basically just point to where we live on our hand because that is the geography of Michigan. And yeah.

               And so the, MiSTEM Network sits at the intersection of education, workforce, and business. And so it's all about making sure teachers have the skills that they need to teach STEM. It's about making sure that businesses are invested into the pipeline of where our students and their workforce is coming from. And then the workforce development is just like, we need STEM-literate people. So any way we can make that happen, whether it's K-12 or beyond or outside that informal space, that's what we look at. And I work both at the regional level and at the state level and just advocating as well. So that's a lot and I'm just going to put a lid on that one.

Speaker 1:

Well, I think it lays the foundation based off of the work that you do. And I think this is important. So I'm glad you laid that groundwork for this topic. Now you shared a title or a article with me because... And I'm not a STEM teacher, but I know out there, one of the big challenges is getting students of color and our girls are women involved in STEM. And so this particular article talks about our girls, our women, and it's not necessarily a matter of interest as to why there is a lack of representation when it comes to our STEM fields, but it's a little bit more than that. So I would love for you to start off by sharing what did you discover within this article and maybe some of your thoughts on it?

Drea Weiner:

Yeah. So this article came from a colleague of mine. And essentially, it's from Youth Science Report and it says female juniors and seniors have far more aptitude than interest in STEM fields. And I sat and I percolated on it quite a bit because I'm just like, "All right, I'm just going to see how I actually feel about this," because my initial thoughts were just like, "Oh. This doesn't sit right." And then it turned to rage for a hot second. And then I'm just like, "Okay. Now we're going to take a couple of steps back," because essentially what the article is saying is that women have the aptitude for STEM. There's just no interest in it. And I'm just like, "Oh heck no. That is not the situation at all because for women in our STEM programs and in our STEM classrooms, it's not welcoming to women."

               There's a lot of logic driven and there's a lot of preconceived notions of what it means to solve a problem. And there's a lot of preconceived notions around what a STEM career even is. And I'll use computer science as an example. So when you say computer science, there is a bias where it's the antisocial tech person who is a little antagonistic and doesn't really want to talk to you and just wants to work in isolation and be left alone to fix the computers. And if that's how you're framing what a STEM job is, then I don't know of many people who want to be in that space. Now that's not to say that stereotype does not exist for no reason. However, that being said, when you actually have a collaborative environment and you start troubleshooting what's actually going on, you're able to understand how best to support people. And tech people are there to help support to make sure things are running.

               So yeah, that's some of my frustrations with this, especially to see that this is being... There's no acknowledgement of what it means to be in the classroom for a female student when if your teacher does fit that stereotypical mold, I wouldn't feel welcome in that space. And I'm just going to suffer through that and then go on a complete bachelor's degree for that? Probably not.

Speaker 1:

Okay. So you say you went through a moment of rage as well while reading this article. Tell me more about that.

Drea Weiner:

I mean, so I grew up in a household where I was expected to be out doing the chores of... I grew up out in the country. We were building our own porches. I was helping my dad in his workshop. I was fully expected to be out helping alongside the rest of my family as well. There were no gender roles in that sense. And so when someone says, "Oh. They're just not interested," that's one of the things where I'm sitting there going like, "Oh. Heck no." I actually really enjoyed that. And that's why I'm fundamentally where most of the STEM skills I learned were outside of the school day. However, I've had so many colleagues where they just say, "Oh. Girls just need to step up. Girls just need to take a leadership role." And one of my colleagues... this is a different one... he was telling me about how in one of his STEM classes where there's a lot of group projects, they have to work in teams.

               They understand that that's needed for the workplace, but also, it is a requirement of a class project. And I think what he was trying to do was be like, "Oh. Look, see how awesome I am being a great ally." And really what he was doing was the girls on the teams would be working, not necessarily taking a leadership role as one would expect them to or as it's normally defined, but it's much more collaborative. "What do you think? What's your idea on this? Here are the different processes. Let's talk through this a bit more," as opposed to, "Here's my idea and we're going to do this one because it's the best." And so as they're working through this, he was actually stopping them and saying, "You're not taking leadership seriously enough. You're not moving forward with this. Here's what it needs to look like."

               And as he's telling me this story, I'm just like, "Let me actually..." Especially when it's an all-female team, they work very differently. They ask questions. They actually iterate and choose which idea, and they might pick and choose of which idea and which parts of the idea work well together and test that out. And so when I did offer myself to be a mentor for his projects, unfortunately, I was not asked to come back in that space, but it was one of those things where the conversation of that one clearly was, "I'm not interested. Oh. I was trying to show you I'm an ally. And now you're pointing out that I wasn't." And it wasn't necessarily that it was a bad thing. I was just bringing up like, "Hey. This could have been better. And I'm a resource you should rely on because once again, I'm a MiSTEM Network Director. This is what I do."

               And it was just one of those moments where I'm just like, "Okay." And so where the rage comes from is like, here's also so many times you engage in those conversations and then like, "Okay. That's not going to come to anything. Great. I'm sorry for the students in your class. Okay."

Speaker 1:

So why do you think you weren't invited back after? I mean, because it sounds like you were just having a conversation. So what do you think it was?

Drea Weiner:

I mean, I've been told my superpower is telling people what they don't want to hear. I guess we had a lot of trouble. And also, I think in that particular scenario, that colleague of mine was looking for like, "Yeah, you're doing great." And no critical feedback at all, no constructive feedback at all. Also, the reason I just corrected myself is I do view critical feedback as constructive, but I recognize that words matter. And so when you start providing feedback in that way, sometimes, it's not always received with the intent of, "Hey. Let's do better next time."

Speaker 1:

I'm going to throw this out there and you can answer it however you want to answer it. But do you think if you were a male and you were having this conversation, it would've been the same results?

Drea Weiner:

Oh no. It would not have been the same response. First of all, my response would not have been as... There would've been a, "Oh yeah, you did great job. Awesome. Well done. Yeah. These girls need to speak up [inaudible 00:10:49]. Yep." Because I've heard that side of the conversation too many times. And then when you give constructive feedback, it would've been like, "Oh yeah, my daughter was like that too. So I guess the conversations with my daughter have been a little bit stressed lately, so maybe I just really need to be more strong and show her what this looks like." Because usually when those conversations happen, I'm just like, "I'm just going to blend into the wall now and try to escape." But yeah, it would not have been the same.

Speaker 1:

Okay. All right. And I'm curious now. Again, I don't have the STEM background. I was a liberal arts dude. Social studies is my area. So when it comes to demographics, as far as your STEM teachers, because I know overall, in general, it's predominantly women are in our classrooms. But is that reflected as well in our STEM classes also.

Drea Weiner:

I mean, I don't have the statistics in front of me, but there's a good chunk of where the male teachers are, they are in a STEM type class. I really wish I had those statistics in front of me. But no. Usually when I'm working with people... And like I work in the Traverse City Gutowski area, which is a pretty rural area of Michigan. I'm a minority usually in the classroom or in the meetings that I'm in when we're talking about STEM educa... Quite frequently, I'm the only female in the room.

Speaker 1:

Okay. Well, let's do this because this is a research-based article. And I'll a link in the show notes. So folks can take a look at it as well. But it looks like they had 116,000 female high school juniors and seniors participate in this survey, this research. And so I'm going to throw out some of the key findings. Says that female students had 31 times more aptitude and interest for careers in installation, maintenance, and repair across numerous industries, such as computers, automotive, telecommunications, and others. And then another stat that I found was interesting was they had twice as much interest and aptitude for careers in arts, design, and entertainment. So I want to ask you, Drea, when it comes to, okay, maybe it's not the interest, what type of environments do we want to create? You could always say it's one thing to recruit, but we also need to retain our kids. So what type of environment which would you suggest would be ideal when it comes to our girls that are in these classes to further support them?

Drea Weiner:

Oh my goodness. So one thing I want to say is we need to start younger. So one of the things that I was super stoked to come across was the National Science Foundation, their article on evidence-based strategies and attracting and retaining girls and women in STEM. And one of the things that they talk about is that from a very young... Gender is something we start even before the child is born. I don't have children, but the gender reveal parties are super weird to me. I don't get it. Did you just want to have a party with a weird-colored cake? I'm just going to say that's weird to me. And also, the kid's not even born yet and you're already fitting them into this gender mold.

               And so something that came from this other article was a piece of disrupting the gendered socialization process. So I will say that women, we are based... We'll eat the bad-tasting cake if it's edible and we won't complain because we've been told not to. There's been studies that show, you give it to the girl, they're going to be polite and eat it because it was given to them. You give it to the boy, they're going to go, "What the heck?" And it could be full of salt. I don't know. And they're going to say, "This is gross and I don't want to eat this." And they might throw a temper tantrum or whatnot if pushed. And so being able to have them tinker around. So give them the tools like the boys' toys. Sorry for saying that in such a gendered way. But the hammer and the screwdriver for them to play with when they're young, I would say ask them to do projects.

               So I don't have my own kids. So I kidnap my partner's nieces and nephews and my little cousins. And if we're building a robot, they're the ones messing with the tool. I help guide them along just to make sure we don't break it to the point where it's not going to end well, but they're the ones messing with the screwdrivers and making sure all the parts are in the right place. And if we have all of them and if the cat goes across the table, what did they run off with? It's 100% in their hands.

               And then I do definitely think of... I used to also work in the informal nonprofit space, and you know the let's do the Keva planks, build the tallest tower we possibly can?

Speaker 1:

Mm-hmm.

Drea Weiner:

Yeah. So I would do that with a variety age of kids, and the five-year-old and I would have so much fun. It would fall. We would build it again. It would fall again. No worrying about temper tantrums or what if it fell? With the third, fourth, fifth grade kids, we would get it taller than a six-foot man. And they would start like, "Whoa, but it's starting to..." "No, I don't want to add anymore. No. I don't want to make it any taller. It's going to fall. What happens if it falls?" I'm like, "We'll just build it back up." And so from that iteration though, I did that a couple of weekends in a row with the same group of kids. And at some point I did point out that the five-year-old who... I mean, she wasn't socialized to any of that like, "Well, how come you think she's not afraid of it?"

               We did have that. We did sit down and have that conversation because frankly, she just wasn't socialized to it yet. And I wouldn't say that we ever truly got past what if it fell, but I could at least get them building again. And so that's one of the things where I was just like, we need to start younger. We need to get their hands in it, wrestling with it. And it's okay if we fail. It's okay if it falls. And that is not something that's okay for women. We are supposed to go for the A once it's perfect and we don't show it unless it's perfect and that. But we need to see what is good enough.

Speaker 1:

Okay. So starting early I think is important. And I would even extend it to just some careers in general. I think educating our kids and bringing them some awareness to different careers that are available, especially our STEM careers, especially when we're thinking about what does the future of technology and things like that look like. So I would agree. What about when they're in class? So you got a student that's junior, senior, or high school or middle school, whatever these STEM-related robotics clubs and things like that. When they're in these programs, when they're in these clubs, when they're in these classes, what are some things that we can also do to facilitate more of a sense of belonging?

Drea Weiner:

Oh my goodness. So first thing I would say, whoever the teacher's facilitating, please take the implicit bias test out of Harvard so that you understand where your own biases were. When I took it, one, I'm very attuned to how this affects me. And yet I was still not where I thought I was. And I'm like, that was a reality check for me. I'm like, "Okay. So if I'm there, where's my colleagues?" So that's step one. Step two is now knowing that and knowing that girls prefer a more collaborative environment, how can you actually create that environment? I really enjoy having kids... Kids need their own autonomy. And even from an education... We know kids need their own autonomy.

               I have a colleague right now who's wrestling with one of her male students where he has a meltdown every single time his idea isn't picked. Now, he has fabulous ideas that most of the time they are a really solid one. So he's not used to his idea not being picked. So wrestling with, "Okay. You need to take a backseat and this is the role in which you're in." And then also like, "Okay. How are we going to come to consensus as a group that the girl's idea might be one you want to go to? And how do you make sure that when students do decide to start monopolizing the space that you're making it equitable for all voices to be heard?" And I'm not saying that that's an easy thing to do or any of that, but it's one of those things of just being aware of like, "Am I paying attention to even just talk time in these planning sessions?" And going from there. That's where I'm at at the very beginning of that.

               And just making sure that your expectations of female students isn't different than your male students because I just feel like sometimes, we hold our female students to that A, and anything less is unacceptable. And we're not setting them up for success, and it doesn't teach them skills around adaptability or problem-solving. It doesn't teach them how to be flexible. And so it's like a Yoda do or do not. There's no middle. And I'm like, "No, there should be a middle in those classrooms because there's a lot of learning that happens in that middle that everything else gets lost."

Speaker 1:

So. Correct me if I'm wrong. This is one of the things I heard was the importance of choosing the right project of interest for not just your class, but specifically for your girls, because correct me if this is stereotype, but this is what I think I heard was that a lot of girls, they work as a group differently than maybe a group of boys would work. And so just keeping that in mind, would you suggest diversifying the group? So having boys and girls mixed in, or if you have enough girls, you can let them have their own project and work together. What would be your suggestion when it regards to dynamics of group work?

Drea Weiner:

Yeah, because for me, it's how you facilitate the group work as opposed to the [inaudible 00:22:30] project. That's the difference for me. And honestly, if I were still in the classroom, I would do like, we're going to do gender. We're going to do age. We're going to do mixed because I was in a mixed-age classroom when I was teaching. And so I would continuously be iterating and showing like, "What worked well in your group? What didn't work well, what made their project... What made them work so well together?" And have the kids self-identify that.

               One of the other things I really wish I knew about prior to me leaving the classroom was the Sustainable Development Goals out of the UN because something girls also like to do, like we like to solve problems that have meaning. We like to know that there's going to be like, how are we improving someone's quality of life or how to be better friends or whatnot? But looking at these 17 items, allowing the students to pick which one calls for them and then being able to facilitate that in a way that allows all voices to be heard, for me, that's where I would start.

Speaker 1:

Okay. Thank you. Thank you for saying that. Again, I want to help out our teachers out there who are looking for some more ways to, again, not just recruit, but also retain our students. Now, how important do you believe representation as far as girls seeing other women scientists in STEM-related fields, how important do you think representation is in that sense?

Drea Weiner:

It is imperative. It needs to be every day. It needs to be in so many different ways. I don't want to see just Hedy Lamarr and who... Everyone talks about Mark Zuckerberg or... What's his name who started Apple? Because that's where my brain's at. Steve Jobs. Hedy Lamarr created wifi and Bluetooth. They would not have been able do anything without her. I want them also to see... So back to the original article we were talking about, you talked about the... You elevated the students are 31 more times more aptitude than interest for careers in installation, maintenance, and repair. So they don't understand what that looks like. They don't know what that type of job actually means.

               Even for me, it sounds a little dirty. It kind sounds like maintenance is that dude that sounds like the person who failed out of high school and this is the only job they could get, from a stereotype perspective. And in reality, those jobs are in such high demand, you can earn more money doing that with a trades degree than anything you can do with a bachelor's degree. I know teachers with master's degrees who earn less than people like that in my community.

               So one of the things that we've been doing in my region is that we've been creating these career profile cards, which I'm trying to pull up the project, which is why I look so distracted right now, where I've actually been intentionally targeting females in STEM careers within my community. So the purpose of this project is I want you to see a local professional in the careers where you can have a living wage within my community. And then on top of that, I do want to crush these gender norms. And I want you to see what this looks like. And so some of the stuff that we look for are the female maintenance people.

               We've got one lady who's got a... I'm going to get the title wrong. I apologize. She's a cement truck driver. It is bubblegum pink. She's the only female cement truck driver that I know in the region. And the kids love her. They get to crawl all over it. They ask her all sorts of stuff of what you do every day and like, "Wait, you don't just drive this around and just sit in your car or in your truck the whole time?" Actually having hear like, "What does it mean to actually make this level? Oh. It's got to continue moving."

               Anyway, so this is a project that's about to hit our press release. We've been working with Michigan Works on amplifying these careers because Michigan Works has been really helpful in saying, "Here are the professions that are in demand in our region that you can make a living off of." We only used their first names, but we chose Jessica, who's an electrical project manager. And so she actually is the one who gave us all the information for this career. So most of it's in her own words. But she talks about what she's really excited about and what it means to be an electrical project manager.

               So she works on scheduling timeline and budget for materials and building projects in the area. So without her, you're not going to have the stuff that you need to build the home or the office that you've got. She works with customers to understand the scope of that and she's solving problems. And then because we live in such a rural area, we do a salary comparison to the state average to what you can make in our region because kids think that $18,000 is a lot of money when you're in high school. That is not the case. And we actually have the kids... When they're in school, this is how we address this. It's like, you go through like, "Let's sit down and actually look at this. You can job shadow with Jessica if you want."

               And so this is one of the things that we do in order to elevate these careers in the classroom. And it is tied to the education development plans required by the Michigan Department of Education so that you're not just like, "Oh. This is a great idea. This has nothing to do with full-time." No. We've made sure that it's tied into all your requirements and the kids can actually be thoroughly interested. And honestly, if at the end of the day, a student's like, "This is not for me," great. I just saved you a whole lot of money and time looking into what job's not for you. And that is in of itself amazing.

Speaker 1:

Congrats on this website. And I'm going to leave a link in the show notes as well so folks can check it out. Now I'm curious. Is this geared towards your girls? Because I see nothing but girls on the pictures, on the images. So is this is very specific and an intentional thing that you're doing or... I see you smiling. What's happening?

Drea Weiner:

Well, yes and no. So we do have men in our career profile cards. In the article from our local newspaper, if you were just to look at this, they did elevate some of the men.

Speaker 1:

I do see that.

Drea Weiner:

Yeah. When I look at these pictures, I really wanted to see how is it that we can break the mold on some of these? Because I've noticed that students have started to gear... Still, even with the career profile cards, they still go towards what they know. And so I'm just like, no, I'm going to interrupt this visual bias, at least, if I can. So that part was intentional on my part of trying to make sure that we had enough pictures. And then once they start digging into them, I will say that when we're looking at certain careers, we try to find as diverse as possible. And also, that's not always possible. So we're working on it.

Speaker 1:

No. But this is good. Again, I saw it. So I was just curious.

Drea Weiner:

No. [inaudible 00:30:59].

Speaker 1:

Okay. And I think it's a good thing, actually. I want to throw this out because I know there's a lot of stereotypes and gender norms when it comes to jobs. And for example, some people might say, "Well, electrical project manager is not a feminine..." or these stereotypes that people will have will say these aren't jobs for girls. And sometimes those conversations happen at home. Sometimes those conversations happen socially through whatever mediums. How do we debunk that? I guess maybe more, just showing more women in these types of roles. What are your thoughts on how do we end that?

Drea Weiner:

From a societal standpoint?

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Drea Weiner:

Yeah. Part of it's exposure. Part of it's like, "How do you have these conversations?" I will say that I'm sure you've run into this too where you step down what might be a delicate conversation and everyone's just shut down and we're all just like, they all start shying away and I'm just like, "Nope. Nope. Come back in. Let's have this conversation. [inaudible 00:32:15]-"

Speaker 1:

We don't talk about Bruno. Yeah.

Drea Weiner:

Yeah. For me, I was just like, "Let's sit down and have this conversation," because for me personally, when I'm in these conversations and I find myself in them a lot just because I talk about it a lot, honestly it's just like, "No, it can be a woman too. There's no reason." Or sometimes, honestly, if Jessica want to be on a STEM panel, we intentionally choose who gets on our STEM... That's not by random. We choose who goes on those panels. And with our counselors, we're debunking that. So through professional development there. And then at home, I hope to eventually help give guidance there. And also, when I'm talking with employers, if they...

               I'll just say right now, if you're going to talk to me about how you don't have enough women or that you don't have enough employees, guess who's going to get recruited to help [inaudible 00:33:20] two more employees? You don't get to just complain about a problem with me and just be like, "Well, I don't really... That's not within my scope of fixing." I'm like, "Yeah, actually, you can do that." And so really it's just trying to facilitate those conversations, seeing how that's going. I did an intent and impact conversation with someone because they were talking about how their dog just mulled over them. And I'm just like, "See, that's an intent and impact situation. It's about a dog at that point." And sure enough, the dog does not mean to do that." But like, that's an analogy someone can understand that's not as scary as opposed to the lovely colleague who really wanted to make sure that these girls were working well on that project, but also his impact was not what he intended. So yeah.

               And just making sure that those conversations are there. I will say that it also means that sometimes people don't come back to have a second conversation with me, but I'm constantly looking at like, "Okay. How can we facilitate this conversation a bit more too?" I know my chamber has been working on a DEI lens for quite some time and I'm just like, "Might be time. I think this might be something I'm going to tap into you all for soon." And it's trying to find the land of the willing because I'm not going to shout at someone who doesn't want to have... If it's not a good faith conversation, I'm like, "All right, I've got other things I can do with my time."

Speaker 1:

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I can understand that. Well, I definitely appreciate the work that you're doing. And like I said, I can see that you are very passionate about getting more girls, again, not just recruiting, but also the retention and helping them understand and see a lot of the careers that are available. So these career profile cards I think are pretty cool. And again, there will be a link in the show notes. So folks can tap into that. Drea, you and I talk all the time and I consider you as providing a voice in Leading Equity. What is one final word of advice that you can provide to our listeners?

Drea Weiner:

If you're confused about something, go research it. Go find good quality background. I keep an open door for good faith conversations. And if I'm shutting down a conversation, it's because we need to come back when it's in a better place. So when it comes to doing your own, go do the research and you can come chat another day.

Speaker 1:

Do your research and come back and chat another day. Like that. All right. If we got some folks that want to reach out, what's the best way to connect online?

Drea Weiner:

Oh. I'm on Twitter, which is at Drea, D-R-E-A, Weiner, W-E-I-N-E-R. And it's a Powerpuff Girl because I was one of those nerdy kids who was always watching Powerpuff Girls as a kid.

Speaker 1:

All right. We like that. So again, all the links will be there for you. Drea, it's always a pleasure. Thank you so much for your time.

Drea Weiner:

Thank you.

Are you subscribed to the podcast? If you’re not, I want to encourage you to do that today. I don’t want you to miss an episode. Click here to subscribe in iTunes!

Now if you enjoy listening to the show, I would be really grateful if you left me a review over on iTunes, too. Those reviews help other advocates find the podcast and they’re also fun for me to go in and read. Just click here to review, select “Ratings and Reviews” and “Write a Review” and let me know what your favorite part of the podcast is. Thank you!