Sheldon Eakins:

Welcome advocates to another episode of the Leading Equity podcast, a podcast that focuses on supporting educators with the tools and resources necessary to ensure equity at their schools. Today's special guest is Ms. Rachel Moore. So without further ado, Rachel, thank you so much for joining us today.

Rachel Moore:

Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here.

Sheldon Eakins:

Well, it's always a pleasure to meet someone new and so I'm looking for this conversation, but before we get into our topic today, I'd love for you to share a little bit about yourself and what you currently do.

Rachel Moore:

Yeah, sure thing. So I am first and foremost, a teacher. I study negotiation, study how people interact with each other, how people handle conflict. And then my mission is to bring that to a wide range of audiences. So a lot of times that looks like my classroom. I teach at the university level. I've helped to develop curriculum for MIT here in Boston, as well as for Northeastern. And I primarily teach in that environment. But about a year ago, I decided that it was important to start bringing the lessons of negotiation and the power of influence and advocacy outside of that standard classroom. So I started an organization called the human factor, which is really about teaching a negotiation advocacy skills to other types of audiences. So we do work with companies looking to bring up new leaders in their organization. And we do work on the other side, just with high school students talking to them about what it means to leverage negotiation and influence skills in their lives.

               And so that's really where I focus, is bringing negotiation skills out of the standard classroom experience and into the real world, because we negotiate every day. It's important to be good at it.

Sheldon Eakins:

Yo, I like that. We negotiate every day. It's important. Can you say that one more time because I'm going to butcher your quote, but that was, I like that. Say it one more time.

Rachel Moore:

Sure thing. We negotiate every day. It's important to be good at it.

Sheldon Eakins:

Yes. Yes. Okay. So this is perfect because I talk about being advocates and I talk about working towards providing a voice for either yourself or others and doing this work. And I could tell you, probably the number one question that I get all the time is, "Okay. I hear you, but how do I do that?" So I want to start with some negotiating tips, but I guess maybe we should set some sort of a foundation and just share with us from your perspective, from your research, from your experiences, why is being good at negotiating so important?

Rachel Moore:

Absolutely. So the first thing is is that I think most of us have poor definition of negotiation. We think about it. So the classic scenario where you walk in in your power outfit and you're going to drive a hard deal, whether that's buying a car or some other smaller purchase. We have negotiations in this box that it really comes down to we're going to argue over money. And the reality is is that negotiation happens anytime you engage another human. So if you are trying to agree on a restaurant with your partner, you're trying to get your team at work to align on something, you're trying to get your teenager to put down their phone. All of those scenarios are also negotiation. And so noting that negotiation happens in so many areas of our life really opens up the range of skills required.

               It's not just about being able to argue over numbers for a finite object, but squishy things like what do people actually care about and are they telling you what they actually care about or are they telling you what they think you want to hear or what's safe for them to share? So skills for that, that's the first thing. And then the second thing is is that it's really easy to develop bad habits. As humans, whenever we run up against scarcity, feeling like we won't get what we need, we have a tendency to default to negotiation techniques that look a lot like undercutting, cheating, occasional lying, putting pressure on people and trying to get what we need at all costs.

               So I think it's important to learn to be a good negotiator because we do it all the time. And if we don't learn to do it well, we'll default to these typical human behaviors that maybe you've experienced out in the real world. They don't actually always lead to great outcomes. In fact, if we don't have any training, we will win less negotiations over the course of our life.

Sheldon Eakins:

Okay. Well, I would say there's a lot of us that have not gotten quote unquote 'training on negotiating.' Would you argue that there's probably ways that we could have gotten training, but maybe we didn't notice that it was training when it comes to negotiating?

Rachel Moore:

Ooh, that's a great question. So I am a trained negotiator and my first exposure to the concept of negotiation was in graduate school. I was 26, 26 years old was my first time that I really was told that I could negotiate. So the opportunities might exist, but I certainly didn't notice them.

Sheldon Eakins:

Okay. Okay. I was just curious because I think... So I've changed my mindset. I'll put it this way. I've changed my mindset when it comes to how I view life. And I used to be one of those people that if I made a mistake, if I felt like I didn't stand up for myself or wasn't assertive enough that I would beat myself up over those type of things. Now I look at life in a way it's like, well, maybe it's not a regret, but more of a lesson that I've learned from a situation where I missed an opportunity to speak up, or I missed an opportunity to again, be assertive or something like that. That has been kind of the direction I've taken things as life lessons. And so unintentionally, I feel like I've learned better how to be a better negotiator, especially with the work that I do when it comes to maybe working with contracts or setting pricing or these type of things.

               And I love that you're utilizing the term negotiation in such a broad term because I think that's a piece that sometimes we forget about. So let me ask you this, then Rachel, I'm going to... Let's do this. I'm going to throw out a scenario and maybe you can break down some of the negotiational strategies that may be accompanied by this. And I would imagine also that we can recognize that our position and our identity definitely plays a factor when it comes to our approach to confidence in negotiating when it comes to our experiences as well. But let's just say I'm in a staff meeting and statistics are being thrown out. So some data, and I feel like the conversations or the results of the data that we're seeing is going to negatively impact a certain group of people. I want to speak up about this. What kind of strategies would you maybe take when it comes to negotiating my voice in these type of situations?

Rachel Moore:

I love this. Great scenario. Really common, right? Busy meeting, lots of things being thrown around and data that maybe doesn't lead us towards the decisions that we think we want to make. The first things that I would say is that it's important to recognize that in that room, there's going to be a status dynamic, right? There's going to be people who are higher up in the food chain, potentially, people who've been there longer, maybe people bringing up this different data. And so the first thing to notice is, who is in the room and what are the things that they care about at a status level? Now status is an external presentation of what I like to call an internal question, right. Am I smart? Am I important? Do I have control? Do I have power? And so if you have people in the room who are running this meeting and you push back hard against something that they believe in or something that they've produced, something that they've put time into, you're kind of pushing back against that question. Does that make sense?

Sheldon Eakins:

Yeah. I'm with you.

Rachel Moore:

So the first thing is to recognize that there's a status dynamic in that room. So if someone is used to being in charge and I want to push back, that's the first thing that I want to be aware of, because if I step on that and push back too hard without first acknowledging this person's question, they're going to stop hearing me.

               So the first thing that I would do is say, "Okay, I want to acknowledge that maybe they've put a lot of work into this." Maybe they have thought about this a long time. They even have some investment. Want to acknowledge that as much as possible. So first step is the understanding the room you're in. Is there a dynamic that you want to address and you want to acknowledge that someone has done some work there? That's kind of the first step.

               Then the second thing I would like to talk about would be what we call in negotiation interests. Now interests are the motivation or the why behind a certain decision, point of view, thing that you were asking for or demanding and so it sounds like in the scenario you've put forward, someone is putting together, some data's flying around and somebody has put forward a decision.

               Yeah. So behind that decision, you want to know, think about what are the things that they actually care about?What's motivating them to make that decision? It might be that they are just they're overwhelmed even. And they're like, "Hey, we just got to make a decision on this. We finally have update on the table that I feel like we can just make a decision that's going to get it off my plate. That's what they care about." Maybe that's it. Or maybe it's something very different, right? Maybe they have a motivation that is... They want to make a certain decision in a way that's going to positively impact their team, right. They're trying to protect their team and trying to make decisions in a way that'll positively impact their team. Or it could be something on the darker side, right.

               It could be that there actually is like pretty significant bias there that is driving their decision making. But all of those motivations reveal what we actually want to be talking about. We don't necessarily want to be arguing with the position that they've put forward, the decision they've put forward. We want to get down and talk to them at the motivational level if we can, because that opens up the range of conversations you can have. So if we're just talking about, like you say it's "A", and I say it's "B," it's pretty hard to move somebody off that perspective. But if you can dig underneath a little bit into how the decisions are being made, what kinds of things they're paying attention to, what data maybe they ignored, now you're having a more collaborative conversation. You're able to dig into some of the reasoning and some of the data versus just being at the sort of positional level, the very top. I believe X and you believe Y or you believe X and I believe that's not true. How are we doing so far?

Sheldon Eakins:

You're good. You're good. So, okay. So I like how you said basically read the audience and the person providing this data and your approach. Would you recommend voicing your opinion right then and there in front of everybody? Or is that something that should be maybe a one-on-one conversation afterwards? I guess it might just depend on the situation as well, but what are your thoughts when it comes to personality? So let's say I'm the person, but maybe I'm more of an introverted, or maybe I'm someone who's more extroverted. Would you recommend different approaches or recognizing our personality traits as part of our consideration with our approach.

Rachel Moore:

So there's a strategy that I would recommend called the relational strategy. Sometimes it's called the I-we strategy because what you want to do is shift from I based statements, or I based thinking to we based statements and thinking, and I'll give an example in a second. But this is specifically shown to be really effective for women and people of color. And then also, anyone who sits in an intersection that makes them not the majority in the room. So shifting to a relational strategy, puts us in a more comfortable approach for many receivers. So if we're going to present our perspective, if we make the other person comfortable with receiving our perspective, that opens up the chances for us to be able to create change. And so the relational strategy is one way to think about that.

               If you were in that room and you wanted to say something at that desk, right, you could leverage the relational strategy. So instead of saying, "I don't think that these statistics are really going to help us or really going to match up with the company values." Instead, you might say, switch to we, "So it's clear that we care a lot about getting the best candidates." So we're talking about hiring. "We care the most about getting the best candidates into the company and doing great work. And I think we can agree that we have certain values that we want to exhibit and looking at this data, I think we need to consider whether or not the statistics we're using here are going to support the values that we have"

Sheldon Eakins:

Why is the we statement so important?

Rachel Moore:

The we statement is so important because if we think about the world as it is today, we are comfortable with certain people of certain identities negotiating on the behalf of others rather than on the behalf of themselves. So I'm not saying this is the gold standard at all. We hope for a better future, but as the world exists today for women, for example, we are very comfortable with women negotiating on behalf of their families, their children, their team, the greater good. We are a lot less [inaudible 00:14:50] the greater society are less comfortable with women negotiating on behalf of themselves. So the we statement shifts the focus from, this is a person pushing for their personal interests to, this is a member of the group pushing for the benefit of the group.

Sheldon Eakins:

Got you. Wow. Okay. We're on track. This is good stuff. Let me throw another scenario out to you. All right. Let's say, and this is one that I get a lot as well, where it's like, how do I quote unquote, "call someone out?" So let's just say, I am a teacher and I witnessed another teacher say something that was either prejudice, or I felt like they were being biased or something that just rubbed me wrong. But they're colleague of mine so there's a professional relationship. I don't want to mess that up or maybe it's my supervisor, but I want to approach them on a one on one basis and bring this to their attention without necessarily getting them defensive and just being able to have a healthy dialogue. What are some approaches that you would take?

Rachel Moore:

Yeah, absolutely. So there's a concept called the Ladder of Inference, which talks about how we formulate the things we believe. And you have maybe heard of this, but we start with all of the data that we can take in in the world and eventually we choose certain things to pay attention to. We assign meaning to that, and we formulate a belief. And then out of those beliefs comes things like thoughts, actions, and statements. So when you're engaging with that person, the first thing that you're doing is you're coming up against some of those statements, actions, the result of an underlying belief. And so what you, as you brought up, would you'd like to do is talk to them about the underlying stuff, right? Belief is the next step down, but underneath that, there's going to be multiple layers all the way down to where you can get to everything that happened that maybe they didn't pay attention to.

               So say they said something like you said, that seemed prejudice and you want to bring that up. The obvious thing is to go to like belief, right? "Do you really believe that thing that you said?" But to really engage in the conversation, you want to actually try to bring it a couple steps deeper than that. So there's not very much room at the belief level for us to disagree. And the reason for that is if you think about as a human trying to stay alive, it's not helpful to you in the moment to have to decide what you believe. So our beliefs are actually pretty solid. They don't change at the belief level very easily. But our beliefs are a product of the things we pay attention to, the meaning that we assigned to them, the bias that was introduced, and then eventually the formulation of belief. So my suggestion in that experience that you're talking about would be to say, "Okay, what questions can I ask that get me below that belief to some of the underlying levels?"

               The scenario you gave was that a teacher, somebody else at the school said something that seemed like it had a lot of bias to it. Maybe they made a comment about a certain student just being unlikely to succeed. The first question would be, "Okay, how do I move them from what I think their belief is, which is that they have a bias towards the student for one reason or another to, how they got there? So the first thing I might say is, "Can you tell me more about that or tell me why?" And getting them talking, getting them sharing a little bit more. What you're hoping to get them to look to is, what's the specific evidence that they paid attention to that gave them that perception? So maybe they noticed that the student doesn't turn in their things on time, or when they answer in class, they hesitate a lot or they have an accent, or they use certain vernacular that isn't as common in the classroom or whatever it is that they paid attention to.

               And then the next step is to once they've started talking about how they assigned meaning to the things that they paid attention to, then we can introduce more data. So we can say, "Okay, but is there potential that that student hesitates to answer in the classroom because of something else? Is there some other data we could have paid attention to? Maybe they are from a certain culture that places assertiveness in a certain category, or they are shy, or they have some other reason." Basically what you're doing is to shift that person's belief. You are bringing them down to the level of, "What did you pay attention to? What did you not pay attention to? And how has that really shaped how you've assigned meaning and eventually shaped your belief and actions as a result?"

Sheldon Eakins:

Okay. And then from there you can probably have a conversation that's, again, you've seen where they're coming from and hopefully they can see where you're coming from and that conversation can go in whatever direction it goes, right?

Rachel Moore:

Exactly. Exactly. And so the idea is, if I tell I believe something and you think I'm wrong, that's the end of our conversation. And so when bringing it down to lower levels, what we're really trying to do is we're getting to a place where we can say, "Okay, you paid attention to X, Y, and Z. I'm showing you that there's also A, B and C. Can we talk about the existence of all of this?" And it's not combative, because I'm not saying, "You didn't see X, Y, and Z," but I'm bringing new data into the system. And as a result, people can't help but you start to incorporate new data into that process. And the more that you can point out new data to them, the more likely they are to shift their belief and actually their actions.

Sheldon Eakins:

Okay. Okay. That makes sense. Now, let ask you this question, because I get asked this a lot as well, as far as compromising. So when it comes to negotiating and compromising, what are some tips that you can give out?

Rachel Moore:

Yeah. So the first thing I would say is that there are very few negotiations that are a true zero sum game. Like, I'm going to get more and you're going to get less or vice versa because we negotiate for a lot of... We typically don't negotiate over just like a single value. So we've all heard that standard negotiation thing of like, "Okay, I say 10, you say 20, let's split the difference and go 15."

               But most negotiations have a little bit more detail than that. So if we're, for example, at a simple example, if we're negotiating a salary, there's also things like vacation days and technology that they might provide with you or insurance benefits or paternity leave. There're all kinds of things that you can negotiate as well. So good negotiators don't think about all their negotiations as a zero sum game, but they shift to what we would call options, which is now that I know what you care about and I know what I care about, now we can start getting creative and say, "Okay, maybe, you can't give me the extra 5k I'm really looking for on salary, but you can give me something else."

               And so shifting to options means that the ideas that you want to compromise on the things that don't matter that much to you in order to get the things that you actually really care about.

Sheldon Eakins:

Okay. So let's relate this to an educational advocacy situation. So if I'm in a place where let's just say, I recognize that teaching strategies should include more cultural, responsive teaching. And I'm a, let's just say I'm an instructional coach, and I'm trying to help a teacher that I'm working with see that. As an instructional coach, I might feel like, "No, this is not negotiable. Cultural responsive teaching needs to happen and there is no, 'Well, how about I teach cultural responsive one day a week and the other day...'" I don't know. I'm just throwing out some random stuff. But I would say that some folks will say there're some matters that negotiating shouldn't be on the table, maybe. It should be all or nothing. And then there's might be some folks will say, "Well, shoot, we've been negotiating since the beginning of our educational system." We've been saying that there're challenges and they haven't been addressed. So where is the negotiating when we haven't gotten anything at all?

               I'm kind of curious about your take if there are situations in this sense where maybe negotiating is not necessarily... I'm sorry, a compromise is not necessarily on someone's agenda, I guess.

Rachel Moore:

Yeah, totally makes sense. And I'm going to take a first draft here because I don't know that I have the answer, but here's some thoughts.

Sheldon Eakins:

Okay.

Rachel Moore:

Absolutely there are things that just should be, and it feels almost wrong to say you need to negotiate for these things because they seem like things we should just agree on, that they should just be true. But if we think about, "Okay, how do we see change? How do we get those kinds of things incorporated into the classroom?" My first thought is that negotiation is never a... Or it's very, very rare that negotiation is a single interaction. It's multiple interactions over time often. And so I would say that you haven't just because you are compromising on something might just mean that you are still in the process of negotiating for that. And I recognize that that's a heavy burden. It's a heavy burden to be in continuous, like advocating for something and compromising and negotiating again.

               But the question would be okay, we have this parallel process of on one side, we want to change whoever's resisting you and you want to change their belief. You want to change their perspective on this particular teaching curriculum or methodology. Part of that might be that they need to see a little bit more data. And I use the word data here to really mean experience. And so one way to think about it is, "Okay, this is a long game," and yes, that's frustrating. But one of the things we can do is say, "Okay, we're going to advocate for this. We're going to start the work of shifting this person's belief. And then we're going to ask for some smaller victories." Let's do a demo of this curriculum. Let's bring this in for the next week. Let's run an experiment. Reduce the feeling of commitment and say, "We're just going to try this out and then use that as an opportunity to introduce more data, to continue doing that work on shifting belief and building that relationship."

Sheldon Eakins:

I always push, even if you don't... Because equity work is not a one time... A lot of the stuff is going to take time to change. And I say, "If you can get some small term wins, which could be considered, you know what, here's a compromise. All right, we're going to get this done, but we can't get it done tomorrow. We can get it done over a school year's time or a couple years. And in the process, we'll do this, we'll do this, we'll do this. But it just won't all happen at one time." But I think in those type of situations, those are some wins for us to celebrate and say, "Okay, the work is happening. It's just, it is again, sometimes when we go into these negotiations, we want everything on our agenda. Whatever we put together, we plan for, we want it all then and there.

               However, sometimes these things do take a little bit more time. Here's the next question then that I have, because you're obviously you're a trained negotiator and a lot of our teachers, we're there to teach. And so the negotiating piece may not be our strong. What kind of resources, like where would you say we should start learning or find some places to practice if you will? Or what kind of strategies would you throw out for us who are trying to learn these skills?

Rachel Moore:

Absolutely. I love this question. So if you don't mind, just a quick story about my mom. So my mom is a hilarious woman. She's the mother of six. And so one of the things that she always was... My whole childhood, she was at the grocery store. She was just trying to keep groceries in the house. My brothers ate them so fast that she was just always at the grocery store. And so when she would get a new car, when she got a car, a new car, like two or three times over the course of my life now, she'd always buy these really odd colored cars. She had a copper colored minivan. She had a almost purple SUV and it used to make us crazy. We got really embarrassed when she'd drop us off at high school and you're driving the purple SUV.

               And one day I asked her, I was like, "Mom, what's the deal with the cars?" And she was like, "All I want to be able to do is to walk out of the grocery store and be able to see my car in the parking lot. I don't want to have to look for it." And what was really funny is when I was a teenager, when she got a new car, one time she comes home from... She just got a new car. She comes home and she's like, "Hey, listen, this is ridiculous. But everybody went out in Houston and bought the same car today. I've never seen one of these things before and now I see them everywhere." And that's really what I want to do for negotiation for you guys, is that the cars were always there, right?

               It just wasn't until she had a reason to look for them, that she started seeing them. And so negotiation is one of those things that is happening in your life all the time. And the more you can recognize it, the better you're going to get at it. Even if you don't have intense training, even if you haven't read all the books, which I can give you some books to put on your list, your show notes for your listeners. But even if you haven't read all the books or had good training, if you start to recognize, "Oh, hey, I care about something here. I bet they care about something too." If I can think about those things, that's the first step. Okay.

               Doesn't seem like this person and I are agreeing. I'm going to try a quick summary of what I think they care about. I'm going to start out with a seems like phrase and see if I can get on the same page, the more you start to recognize those things, the more you're going to see them. And the more that you see them, the more opportunities you have to practice. So my recommendation is actually just start looking, start noticing and recognizing the things that have always been there. But now you have a little bit more of a lens.

Sheldon Eakins:

Love that. So just being more, I guess, more intentional with your negotiating, what do you say for situations where just you... Let's say we've done the work as far as practicing, we've read books, we've planned out our approach, things don't work. Do you suggest repeating your process? Do you suggest just giving up? What do you say to someone who doesn't negotiate, but doesn't seem like it went well? What kind of tips do you have?

Rachel Moore:

Yeah, that's a great question. So the way that you get good at negotiation, and this is for all people, whether they're in law school or they teach elementary school is you have to try something and then you have to ask yourself, "How did that go? What results did I see and then give yourself advice for the future. So I like to call this... You want to observe. You want to try to diagnose what happened, then you want to give yourself prescriptive advice. So, okay. I tried this thing. Didn't work. Okay. But they did agree with me on this point, but they didn't seem to keep listening to me when I used X technique, reflecting on that and then saying, "Okay, what would I have done differently?'.

               So easy moniker is, what worked, what would I do differently? And then using that as a way to shift your approach, because we're never going to go back and use the same... We might use the same techniques, but we're never going to use the 100% the same scenario. So being willing to reflect on what worked and try again, based on what you have seen in yourself and in others is really the way that you get good at negotiation.

Sheldon Eakins:

I like that. Don't give up. I always say, "Don't give up." I've been in situations where you literally have to say it 12 times and then as that 12th time people go, "Oh, why didn't you say that before?" I said it 11 times before that, but for some reason, this particular approach this day was sunny and just happened to be one of those days and it got through to you. So, I think at the end of the day, we want to maybe look at different ways to approach things, but I always say, "Don't give up on it, especially when it comes to who's going to be primarily impacted." If it's your students, that's going to be negatively impacted, if we don't say anything, if we don't speak up, then how are we going to be able to make sure that they're going to be successful in life past our classrooms? And I think that's important as well.

Rachel Moore:

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Sheldon Eakins:

No, I definitely consider you as providing a voice in leading equity, Rachel. I'd love for you to share with the audience maybe some final thoughts and things that we haven't talked about that you want to make sure that the audience leaves this conversation with.

Rachel Moore:

Sure. And thank you so much for having me. I think the last thing that I would say is that, when we want to have influence, when we want to shift someone's belief or behavior, we want to get a great outcome, there's two factors in play. There's our ability to persuade or our actions to try to persuade or negotiate. And then there's the resistance that we experience. And to get a great outcome is really finding the balance of that. How do we try to shift somebody's mind in a way that overcomes that resistance and doesn't build it? And what I want to acknowledge is that that resistance equation, if you will, trying to persuade and the resistance that we push back against is different for all of us. And so, there's great research that talks about the barriers that women or people of color or other minorities face when they try to negotiate for great outcomes.

               And that's kind of heavy to sit with and to say, "Okay, just at the start of the conversation, we're not all on an even playing field here." But my encouragement is that when we negotiate, when we engage with people and we have conversations, whether it's directly about being an advocate for something, or if it's about just trying to make a shift to your workplace or in your classroom, we're actively changing people as well. When we engage with them, when build a relationship and we talk about what we believe, and we use good negotiation techniques to try to shift people's perspective and overcome that resistance, they can't help, but be changed.

               So I start off by thinking, "Is it fair that the equation is not the same for everyone?" Absolutely not. "And do I hope that changes over time?" Absolutely. "But are there things that we can do today to help us navigate that and change some people along the way?" I think so. So to use your words, stick with it, don't give up because I think it's one of those skills that can really help us to see change.

Sheldon Eakins:

You know that's right. Rachel, if we got some folks that want to connect with you, what's the best way to reach you online?

Rachel Moore:

I have a brand new Instagram presence that I am working on building. I have a website I can drop in your show notes as well as just send me an email. I would love to talk to folks about if they have questions about the topic, if they want some great resources, I would love to have that conversation.

Sheldon Eakins:

So what's your website and your Instagram handle?

Rachel Moore:

Sure. Yeah. So the Instagram handle is @thehuman.factor and the website is thehumanf.actor. So T-H-E-H-U-M-A-N-F.A-C-T-O-R.

Sheldon Eakins:

I'll definitely leave the links in the show notes. Rachel, it has truly been a pleasure. Thank you so much for your time.

Rachel Moore:

Absolutely. Thank you for having me.

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