Sheldon Eakins:

Welcome, advocates, to another episode of the Leading Equity Podcast, a podcast that focuses on supporting educators with the tools and resources necessary to ensure equity at their schools. Today's special guest is Mr. Arturo Senteno, and without further ado, Arturo, thank you so much for joining us today.

Arturo Senteno:

Thank you, thank you. Good being here.

Sheldon Eakins:

All right. It's funny because you and I kind of chatted a little bit, and we thought we were just going to talk about what the interview was about when, no, we're doing this right now. So, I'm really excited. I got you on the spot, but I know you're going to bring it. So, I'm excited for it, but before we get into our topic, I'd love for you to share a little bit about yourself and what you currently do.

Arturo Senteno:

Sure. So, currently I'm an associate principal for instruction at Elk Grove High School. It's, I would say, a medium to large high school in District 214, which is a suburb of Northwest of Chicago. Been in education for about 20 years and school administration for the last nine, so I had the whole gamut of things from dean of students to student services to instruction. So, definitely, and I was a biology teacher in my former life.

Sheldon Eakins:

In your former life, okay. Got you. All right. So, I found interesting, you're doing some research regarding teachers of color and the retention levels. And so, I wanted to start there because you mentioned to me earlier an interesting... You didn't give me the numbers, but it makes sense. Teachers of color, staff of color tend to stay longer when they have their supervisors who reflect the characteristics or look like them as well. But, the challenge is, we don't have a lot of administrators of color in those type of positions. So, I wanted to start there and kind of get your thoughts overall of how that, when you came across that information, what were some of your thoughts?

Arturo Senteno:

Yeah. So, one of the things, obviously my own lived experience, I'm a Brown, Latino, and I noticed I don't have a lot of supervisors like myself, even as a teacher going through the ranks, and as I move up in administration, less and less. And so, as I started to look around, at least in the suburbs of Chicago, that was very clear that there was less administrators of color. And so, that was noticed, kind of the first highlight that I noticed myself personally.

               But, when I started to do some of the research, and I looked at students and teachers, there's a lot of evidence there that shows that students do well academically when they have teachers of the same race, and there's a lot of researchers like Thomas D out of Tennessee that does a lot of work in looking at that, even looking at predicted outcomes. There's a John Hopkins report that stated the increased college attainment of Black kids when you have Black teachers is very powerful.

               And so, I started to kind of look at, well, what about the staff? What happens, and there was a few things that occurred even with my district where an administrator of color would come into a position, and we started to see teachers follow that person. And then, when that administrator left, so did the teachers. And so, that became a little bit of an eyebrow raise for myself, and I realized that there must be something there.

               And so, I kind of explored that a little bit in a pilot study. I interviewed five teachers, and these were in this case Latinx teachers, and asked them the questions like, "Why did you leave," or, "What was your journey," and what people started to tell me indirectly was that their supervisors matter, and more importantly, the representation they had mattered. And so, that was something that kind of I need to look into this a little further, and that's kind of why I've been doing some research on that and looking to kind of have a dissertation on it.

Sheldon Eakins:

Well, let's dig a little deeper into that because when you said that it mattered to those teachers, what was it that mattered to them?

Arturo Senteno:

Yeah. There's some direct factors and indirect. So, some of the direct factors is that they might have similar lived experiences. Things like the role model effect are pretty important. If somebody who looks like me had made it thus far, they become a window for my opportunity. So, that was really important, right? A mirror as well, right? I could see myself doing that position. So, there's some aspirations there.

               But, I think the indirect part is super important too, that they become kind of advocates. Supervisors can become advocates for teachers in some ways that's very indirect, unspoken about. When decisions are made from the administrative level of even putting classes in certain places or room usage, I think the administrators of color might actually provide a different lens and say, "You know what? Let's put this teacher here, and here's why, because they need to feel valued," and I think that part is really important. So, there's some indirect factors as well.

Sheldon Eakins:

Now. Okay. Let me ask you this because maybe you've come across the staff, because you mentioned earlier about Latinx staff. But, does the race matter versus just a person of color having an understanding, or were there some differences with, okay, Latinx and a Latinx, and Black and a Black, those type of statistics? Were there some things that you found?

Arturo Senteno:

So, what I found was that it does matter in certain nuances, but I would say that, in general speaking, a supervisor of color does have more representation and respect with the teachers of color. That's kind of what I've seen in asking a lot of the teachers those questions. If my supervisor was someone that I trusted, then I noticed that. I feel like, when you start to get into the Latinx or Latina, I think language plays a part. So, if they could speak Spanish, or there's using that language, I think that's another nuance of that particular strand. But, certainly the teachers that I interviewed, they mention an administrator of color as being someone that's really important to them.

Sheldon Eakins:

So then, here's the question that I have next then. From your research and your perspective, when we're thinking about retention, should we start at recruiting more administrators of color? Or, do we need to really start looking at recruiting more teachers of color that could potentially become... Where do you think we need to start when it comes to this work?

Arturo Senteno:

So, I think the answer is yes to both of those. I certainly think that there needs to be representation at the administrative level, supervisors, but I also think that bringing more teachers of color into the classroom's absolutely necessary. So, it's the chicken and the egg, which one should come first? I think yes to both of them, but for me, the recruiting part is only done well when you have an area of retention. And so, there's a neighboring school in our district that has no problem whatsoever recruiting African American and Latinx teachers. They're really good at it. I mean, everybody in this area wants to be at that school because they do their retention so well.

               And so, that's also another chicken and the egg, which one do you work on first? I would say, you work on what you can control in your house, right, which is how you treat people, how you are able to connect with teachers of color. How do you support them in ways that make their voices heard? I think all that's super important, and when that foundation is built, kind of the field of dreams, if you build it, they'll come, that same philosophy works here.

Sheldon Eakins:

Okay. So, let's shift gears a little bit because let's look at those retention strategies because I know a lot of the folks that are listening to this who are in leadership positions or maybe are staff of color or teachers, they're wondering, "Okay. All right. So, it sounds good. We need to keep them there. How do we build the field of dream scenario where they come, and not just come, but they stay?" So, what are some strategies that you could recommend when it comes to retention?

Arturo Senteno:

Yeah. So, a lot of the theoretical work that I've done so far working in some of the theoretical constructs really work on two major theories. Self-determination theory, right, and that self-determination theory is basically giving people three psychological needs to make them successful, and then they'll have the motivation to do well. So, just looking at that aspect, you have autonomy, right? So, how do you give teachers autonomy? The second one is, how do you make them feel competent, value what they know? And then, the third part is making them feel a sense of belonging to the school.

               So, if you just look at it from just that one, those are pretty easy things. I think giving teachers time to be autonomous and be able to make curricular decisions is super important. The second one with competence is you celebrate what they already know. You put them in positions of leadership. If they're going to teach something, they're the content experts on it. And then, belongingness, what do they bring to the table? How are they special and unique to your school? So, that's one area.

               The other piece that I really explore is, how does relational trust work? And so, now that one has a lot more to do with the supervisor is that there's all these pre-conditions, things like benevolence, honesty, safe working conditions, personal identity. Those are things that the supervisor brings to the table, and those things work in conjunction with each other and hopefully provide some of these strategies.

               So, one thing I've learned in doing some of these interviews of teachers is that they really want an administrator that's going to address race right off the bat. So, when I looked and asked the question, "Tell me, what does a good administrator do?" The people that found favorable were administrators that were able to identify race, even when talking about students, like saying, "Hey, these are our Black students. These are our Latinx students. These are our White students." Administrators that avoided the race, "Those kids," or, "Some of our kids," and they speak in generalities-

Sheldon Eakins:

A coded language.

Arturo Senteno:

That's what I'm saying. They were turned off. And so, that right there, that's a simple step that I think has to be addressed. I think, as a young principal that comes through the ranks, you have to know that. You have to know, hey, you got to identify race. You got to come with it and be honest, which goes back to the honesty piece. Go ahead.

Sheldon Eakins:

Can I jump in? So, just so I'm clear, when you say identify race. Okay. Just identifying that, okay, this is a challenge that's happening to maybe Black kids, this a challenge happening. Not necessarily identifying racism, but just more of identifying that these students do have these identities. Is that, just, I want to clarify.

Arturo Senteno:

Yes. That's absolutely correct. Making sure that you're recognizing students' identity, I guess, would be a better way.

Sheldon Eakins:

Gotcha. Gotcha. Okay. Now, I'm sorry. I cut you off. Go ahead.

Arturo Senteno:

No, that's okay. The second part would be asking teachers to be part of decision-making processes and being intentional including our teachers of color. So, as an administrator or supervisor, you might have 10 teachers and only one teacher of color. I would say that one teacher of color holds a lot of weight in how you bring them to the table. Right? Are you asking them to be part of committees? Are you asking them to be part of things where they make big decisions because I think their voice being heard is super important. Again, and when inter interviewing teachers, they said they felt really connected to an administrator that invited them to things, as opposed to just seeing who signed up for it.

Sheldon Eakins:

So, okay. Now, this is a question that I get a lot, right, with regards to that. So, let's say there's that one person, or there is a small pool of people of color. And so, an organization, a board, or whoever recognizes that they want to get more diversity when it comes to racial representation. However, there's only that one or two persons. So, this person gets called to, they end up on 10 different committees, right? One, that's one challenge, or in addition to all their professional job and everything, but they're on 10 committees. There's these commitments.

               And then, the other part is, I have a lot of those who are wanting to ask these individuals to join their group, but they don't want it to come across obvious as, "Look, we really needed that one." We don't want it to come across as tokenized. So, do you have some advice for asking teachers to be included, but not making them feel like, "Oh, we're only getting you because you're Black." What are your thoughts?

Arturo Senteno:

So, yes. I've experienced some of that myself where you're asked to be on 10 committees. I think the important part of what I'm saying, though, is that you're asking for their input. Not necessarily they got to be on the committees, but if you come to Sheldon. You say, "Hey, Sheldon. I know you're on some other committees, but who should I ask? Who has a voice?" Right? Now, you've just empowered that person to make some decisions, not necessarily be on the committee because I know, Sheldon, you're on 10 other committees, right? But, you know somebody that knows somebody that knows something, and I want that something to be on the committee.

Sheldon Eakins:

And I would add that you need to be confident in that and upfront. I tell people, I say, "Listen, just be upfront. Say, you know what? We recognize that we aren't as diverse as we need us to be. That's why I am being honest. I'm coming to you because I'm hoping that you either could help recommend somebody, or if you have the time, you can be a part of that." But, I think sometimes we get, again, going back to where you're saying, teachers really value an administrator who is okay to address race. But, if you're just trying to avoid it so much that these kind of conversations don't come across genuine, and then it can cause some further issues when you're trying to help with the best intentions, but you end up making things worse.

Arturo Senteno:

Yeah, absolutely.

Sheldon Eakins:

Okay. So, one of the things I want to touch on, when you talked about self-determination theory and autonomy and competent and belonging, right, and making staff feel that way. I have seen situations, and I actually was working with a DEI leader at her district where she had, there was one Black teacher. He was recruited in to teach AP course. I think it was a science-related course, and the challenge that he had was, he didn't feel like he had autonomy. His mentor, the person that was kind of supervising him, was making him basically teach the course as the mentor had taught it. And so, it was really pushing a challenge for this individual, and the conversation was, "Will he stay," because he was dealing with that in addition to other issues, right? But, that was one of the biggest things was the autonomy. I want to see if you could maybe touch on, why is the autonomy so important for us?

Arturo Senteno:

Yeah. Yeah, that's a really, really good point. I think the autonomy is important because it really speaks to the respect you have for that person in their role. Right? So, let's use a different example. Let's say that I'm hiring a babysitter to watch my kids, right, and we go off for evening with the wife, and I want to have a babysitter. If they're young, and in my opinion, I don't really know if they know what they're doing, I'm going to give them a list of things to do, right? This time, check in. This time, text me. This time, check the doors. Make sure they're asleep by this time. Make sure they brush their teeth, all that stuff. Right? That would be the opposite of autonomy, right, like I'm controlling because I don't really trust, given the age of this babysitter who's only 16. I'm not really trusting.

               But, if it was, let's say, my grandma. My grandma watching my kids, I'm going to say, "Peace out. I'll come back later on tonight," because I respect that she knows what she's doing. And so, that's full autonomy, right? And so, the way that supervisors work with their teachers, by either giving them the list or giving them the autonomy to do whatever, really speaks to the respect that underlies their profession.

Sheldon Eakins:

And I would say that, that is not always prevalent with all staff. So, my thing is, if you're going to do this to one teacher, this needs to be your process. Not that I agree with it, but if this is your approach, it needs to be equal. But, for this particular case, it was just him that was getting this type of micromanagement style. The other teachers weren't, and it's like, again, it seems... We're going to assume that the supervisor has the best intention, and this is just implicit bias, right? We're just going to assume that's what it was.

               But, for us, again, if I'm the only of a handful of people of color, and then we lower it down, because I mean, we think about statistically. If I'm the only Black male educator in the school, in the district, and then this is my experience. Why would I want to stay in a situation like that? So, when you mentioned that, it really made me think about that, which kind of also goes into the whole belonging piece as well. So, what are some ways that we could help our staff, especially our staff of color, feel like they have some belonging in a position where maybe they're the small handful in their population?

Arturo Senteno:

Yeah. I think this is one of the areas that is unique to each building, depending on how many teachers of color you have and what the demographics are. But, I think certainly allowing people to bring their authentic selves to the table, right? So, if there are certain things that are celebrated, if there are certain cultures and traditions that, that person brings, they get asked to bring them if they want to, if they're ready, and they feel it's a safe space.

               But, also recognize, and one of the simplest things I've seen happen that was transformative for myself was during the whole Zoom process. You ever been on a Zoom early, it gets a little awkward if only maybe three or four people show, but there's a cast of 20. So, music. Music is a nice cultural way to introduce people. It wasn't until the last couple of years, when I was playing some Spanish music during the beginning of any of our Zoom periods, that I think our Latinx staff here really appreciated, almost to the point like that never was done before. Just opening the door of music, of culture, of art, whatever it is, when you open that door, people feel connected, and they're like, "Oh, I never came into a room where there's salsa music playing." That's nice, right, and that's the belongingness piece is that you're being open as a supervisor of every culture, and you're really trying to bring that in.

               So, if one day, you're playing some music, maybe that isn't your own personal favorite, but you're opening it up because you want to welcome everybody, then I think you're going to catch a few more people feeling like, "Well, this could be a safe space. This could be a welcoming environment." So, anything cultural, I think, is always an important part. Now, I would, as a caution, if you're not of the same race, I would make sure to check in to make sure that's a comfortable feeling because we want safe spaces. But, that's something that I think is worth trying because it recognizes your attempt.

Sheldon Eakins:

So, here's a question I want to throw at you. All right? I want to get your take on this, Arturo. Dress codes, okay, because you said come in your authentic self. As a school leader, what is your take on dress codes regarding your staff, and I will go even more specific, when it comes to hairstyles?

Arturo Senteno:

So, the district I'm in doesn't really have one related to hairstyles. You can wear your hair however you want, and I think that's an important value. More importantly, myself as a supervisor, I'm going to make sure that I make it comfortable for the people who work for me and that they could come however they like, and I think that's the important piece, and how do you emulate that? Right? How do you, as a supervisor, emulate that? I think that's the magic to this whole thing that I'm working on is, some people are really good at this naturally, right? I got some gray hair here, but I usually grow it out. I grow it out every couple years. I get the long, Latino curls going in the back, and I think some way, I do it mostly because I'm a little lazy at times, but I start to like that hairstyle.

               I think it also brings people to like, "Yeah, there you go. My supervisor wears his hair however he wants. He doesn't care what other people think." I think that makes and empowers my staff to say, "Hey, I could come however I like." I think that modeling piece is super important. So, that's kind of how I come with it is that you got to be able to respect people at their core value. It doesn't matter what their hair or dress looks like. And then, how you show that?

               And then, maybe the time that it comes up, how do you deal with it? Right? If someone comes up in flip-flops and shorts, and that's not the dress code of the school, then how do you address it as a supervisor? And then, maybe, just maybe, you take it back to your supervisor and say, "You know what? That dress code maybe isn't right. We should look at that again." That builds some credibility, goes back to the honesty and relational trust piece, and now you got someone on your side.

Sheldon Eakins:

Got you. All right. I thought I could stump you for a second, but you held it down. Good job. Good job. Good job. But, I think that's important. I mean, we joke, but I think those little things that sometimes we don't think about like, am I allowed to put on my traditional clothing that I would wear like at a ceremony, if that's something I want to come to school in? Maybe I have a big important day or have a big project that I want to share with my students. Am I allowed to do that without feeling like I had to question it, I had to think about it?

               I got a lot of Black friends that have locks and whether or not they can wear locks, can sometimes be looked at as unprofessional, and all these different things, and it's just like, I want to be who I am. If I got tattoos, if I wear hijab, whatever it is, I want to feel like I'm comfortable in my space, and being able to be supported by my administrator, I think, is very, very important. So, I'm glad that, that's something that you support and that you're willing to not just support it, but you're also willing to show it through your actions as well. So, thank you for the work that you're doing there.

Arturo Senteno:

Absolutely. I would say the one thing that you just said right there is super important is that every little thing matters, and that's what I walked away from all these interviews with is that, after you have an interview with somebody, right, and you get a chance to code what they say, transcribe it all and code it, you start to realize there's a lot of those little things that add up, right? If every time someone says something about mentioning race, and I coded it, and it's in there 75 times in a 10-minute conversation, then it has some weight to it, right? And so, yeah, I think to echo that piece that every little thing matters as a supervisor, everything matters.

Sheldon Eakins:

Well, I'm looking forward to that research, so we might have to bring you back in once you have everything done. What chapter are you on right now?

Arturo Senteno:

So, I'm doing my methodology right now.

Sheldon Eakins:

Got you. Okay, okay. It gets easier each one. Each one is easier, but you got ways to go. Arturo, I definitely consider us providing a voice in leading equity. I wanted to give you an opportunity to leave us with one final word of advice for our listeners.

Arturo Senteno:

We do this job because we care about kids, right, and I think one of the best things we could do for kids is model the people we want them to be. And so, we treat people with respect, and we're honest, and we're loyal, and those are the kids that we're going to get in return.

Sheldon Eakins:

Yeah, yeah. Love that. If we have some folks that want to connect with you, what's the best way to reach you online?

Arturo Senteno:

They could reach me, email me, [email protected]. I think that's the easiest right now while I'm in my transition to another role in another building. So, I definitely will reach back out to them.

Sheldon Eakins:

Okay. Okay, and we'll leave a link in the show notes with that as well. Arturo, it's definitely been a pleasure. I'm glad that we got a chance to meet. Let's stay in touch, and thank you so much for your time.

Arturo Senteno:

Thank you.

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