Sheldon Eakins:

Welcome, Advocates, to another episode of The Leading Equity Podcast, a podcast that focuses on supporting educators for the tools and resources necessary to ensure equity at their schools. Man, I love saying that, because it just gets me so excited. I've got some special guests today, a husband and wife team, today. So, I'm really excited to bring on Lorena and also Roberto German are here today. Without further ado, Roberto, Lorena, thank you so much for joining us today.

Roberto German:

Our pleasure. Our pleasure. Man, we're proud of you for rolling your Rs, bro. We know you're from Texas, and that was a challenge. You are demonstrating equity.

Lorena German:

Yes.

Sheldon Eakins:

I do what I can. I do what I can.

Lorena German:

Thanks for having us. Thank you.

Sheldon Eakins:

It's a pleasure to have you, an honor to have you on. You had some circumstances, so I'm glad we're able to connect. I know who you are, the two of you. We've talked prior. I would love for our audience to know a little bit about yourself. Let's start with Lorena. Why don't you share a little bit about yourself and what you currently do?

Lorena German:

Yeah, I am co-founder of Multicultural Classroom with Roberto. I lead all of the academic side of things. I'm also Chair of NCTE's Committee Against Racism and Bias in the Teaching of English, so I'm proud of the work we're doing there in supporting English teachers all across the country. I'm also one of the co-founders of #DisruptTexts. If people don't know about DT, go check out our website and learn some more. We're doing a lot of work with literacy teachers all across the country to reimagine and reinvent what the classroom curriculum is like, what we're teaching and how we're teaching it. I think that's it, right? That's mainly... Plus, I'm a mom of a seven, four and one year old.

Sheldon Eakins:

Don't forget about that. Don't forget that.

Lorena German:

Okay? We're busy. Busy.

Sheldon Eakins:

Okay, well thank you. I didn't know NCTE... What was that committee? I didn't know they had that. Say it again?

Lorena German:

Yeah, they have a series of different committees. This one is the outward facing one. What we do is we create material for English teachers who are part of NCTE and not... Ideally free materials that they can consume specifically on... Well, the committee is called Committee Against Racism and Bias in the Teaching of English. That's the focus.

Sheldon Eakins:

That's dope. That's dope. Shout out to NCTE.

Lorena German:

Yes.

Sheldon Eakins:

I'll be out in Anaheim in November, keynoting for the conference in November. I'm excited for that. I didn't know that all that was there. That's dope. That's what's up. Roberto, why don't you share a little bit about yourself and what you currently do?

Roberto German:

Yes, sir. Yes, sir. I am co-founder of Multicultural Classroom. I serve as the Executive Director. I do a lot of work behind the scenes, making sure we're in compliance, building the network, making things happen, some of the tedious work that my co-founder definitely does not want to take on. Also, my skillset lends itself more towards that. I'm also the host of The Hour Classroom Podcast. It's been a great endeavor me, for us. I started it back in September, so I've been several months into it. I'm learning a lot in the process, learning from you and others about podcasting and how to do well. It's something I'm truly enjoying.

               In addition to that, as Lorena mentioned, we are parents of three young children. That's a full-time job in itself, and certainly one of our joys, one of the things that fills our cup. I am an author working on my first publication, which is going to be a YA poetry book. There's a gap for young adults poetry, and so I'm trying to do my part to fill that gap by getting my message out there to the world. The title of the book is, [inaudible 00:04:14] Tears. I'm hopeful that it will be ready this summer.

Lorena German:

Wait a minute, we forgot one of the most important things. Roberto was in school leadership for over 15 years across all types of schools, pre-K all the way through 12th grade, public, private, suburban, urban. I was in the classroom with 6th-12th grade ELA for over 10 years.

Roberto German:

Yes, facts.

Sheldon Eakins:

So, y'all were being modest. Tell this. That was your moment to tell us, "That's what we doing." All right, all right, all right. Also, Lorena is an author as well. What's the name of your book?

Lorena German:

There're two books. The first one is, The Anti-Racist Teacher Reading Instruction Workbook, and the other one is Textured Teaching, that just came out with Heineman this September.

Roberto German:

September.

Lorena German:

September.

Sheldon Eakins:

We'll put links, by the way folks, in the show notes so you can get your hands and check those things out. One of the things within your Textured Teaching book, a Framework for Culturally Sustaining Practices, and shout out to Dr. Django Paris out there for doing a lot of that research and doing a lot of the work behind culturally sustaining pedagogy. Dr. Paris, if you can hear me, I'd love to get you on the show, by the way. One of the things that you talk about is culturally sustaining practices. A lot of time we hear "Culturally Relevant, Culturally Responsive" and we hear "Culturally Sustaining". I would say sometimes when I do trainings, that's one of the questions that I get is, what is the difference between those three? Are they similar? Is it just a matter of semantics? Or are there some key differences between those three?

               I'm going to throw it out to the two of you. Whoever wants to jump on first. Could you start us off with just kind of discussing what is culturally sustaining pedagogy, and how is it different from relevant and responsive?

Lorena German:

Yes, that's such an important distinction and understanding that we need to have, particularly in this current climate where terms are getting thrown around and weaponized in a way to just essentially say, "Stop talking about issues of race and bias in schools." We need to know what we are talking about and what we're naming. What I'll say is, first each one of those concepts is a different framework. It's a different approach written by three different people.

               Culturally Relevant Teaching, written by Dr. Gloria Ladson-Billings is one thing. She offers a framework. Then there is Culturally Responsive Teaching by Dr. Geneva Gay whose been on your show, which is amazing. I'm sure they can listen to that show to hear more about what that is. Then there's Culturally Sustaining Pedagogy by Dr. Django Paris, originally written in 2012. People can go and find that PDF online. It's for free by Harvard Review. Then he teamed up with Dr. Samy Alim, and together they edited the collection, Culturally Sustaining Pedagogies, which is the textbook. That came out 2017. We'll start there. That's the foundation.

               I'm going to do this in a very reductive short version, because otherwise this would be a course, right?

Sheldon Eakins:

Go for it. Go for it.

Roberto German:

If it's a course, folks got to pay for it.

Lorena German:

It's a lot, right? Culturally Relevant Teaching, as theorized and crafted by Dr. Ladson-Billings, is a framework, meaning that there are... I think she calls them "tenants". She has four or five tenants that talk about the "how", how can I be culturally relevant? How can I make sure that what I am teaching relates to students, engages them in critical thinking, and pushes forth social consciousness and awareness regardless of my content area? That's the very short version of Culturally Relevant Teaching.

Sheldon Eakins:

My understanding is, Dr. Ladson-Billings, she was very disturbed with a lot of the negative statistics around black students, so she went and intentionally sought out teachers that were somehow successfully preparing a lot of our black kids. She wanted to see what were they doing. That's my understanding behind the book, Dreamkeepers, and kind of the origins. Is that similar to your understanding as well?

Lorena German:

Yes. Yes. She has always been very concerned about the success of black and brown students. She often speaks reflecting on current and modern issues. She'll get up and she'll say, "Hey, look at the statistics coming out. We have a problem. We need to return and go back to Culturally Relevant Teaching." Yes, that's the short of Culturally Relevant Teaching. With responsive, Dr. Geneva Gay was concerned about just that, being responsive to students, responding to their culture and using their own age based culture too. She talks about pop culture, and bringing that in, and hip hop. That's why I think the work of Dr. Gay and Dr. Ladson-Billings gets used interchangeably, because they do relate a lot and they're saying a lot of the same things, but the truth is, if we're going to be accurate about people's work then we need to make sure to distinguish between the two. She also has her framework, which sounds a lot like Culturally Relevant Teaching.

Sheldon Eakins:

Can I jump in for just one second? I've heard arguments that were... Dr. Gloria Ladson-Billings' work is more on a racial, for black and brown kids, but the culturally responsive piece is applicable to everyone. So, you're looking at culture, not necessarily race space, but you're thinking "Okay, maybe this person's-" for example, maybe you got some Ukrainian students coming in, or from a different country and they're of European descent. How are we responding to the student demographics that are represented in our classrooms? Is that same/similar to what you have heard? Or have you heard something different?

Lorena German:

Yeah, no I agree. That's why I mentioned the pop culture piece. She was like, "A lot of young people in our schools, our curriculum is antiquated in a lot of ways." She was like "Let us consider how can we use modernity in our approach to engage them and to do-" in the end, a lot of the same goals that Dr. Ladson-Billings was sharing. That's why I think they get used interchangeably. You're right, that her concern was about responding to, meaning you're in front of me, how do I respond to you regardless of who you might be? These are some of the ways that we can think about the differences.

               Fast forward to people misusing these approaches and these frameworks, to people saying, "I'm responding to... There you go. Here is my rap that I'm going to use in my class to [inaudible 00:11:56]-"

Sheldon Eakins:

Here's my poster.

Lorena German:

Right, "Here's my poster. Here's the rap song that I'm going to use to make sure that you get interested, and then we're going to go and actually read Shakespeare. Here's me doing a cool dance at my front door and shaking hands with you to be relevant to you, and then bring you in to do all the same things that are going to erase the dance that I just did at the door." We get to 2012, and Dr. Paris is like, "We need to go beyond being responsive to and be relevant to." He reaches this conclusion through his own research obviously, but also conversations with Dr. Ladson-Billings, and hearing her talk about what the mistakes have been, how people have... Her concerns about how people have misused this framework, and are using it as this catchall phrase, and how it's watered down to a performative race-based thing happening in the classroom.

               What I appreciate about CSP is that it says we have to be responsive to, and we have to be relevant to, but we have to be very concerned about sustaining the cultures, the life ways, the linguistic practices, all of the things that schooling has historically, effectively in some cases, try to vilify any race. That introduction alone is worth it, but they explain how in the United States the history of schooling has just been really a painful and violent experience for most communities, and not all, of color in different ways. The attempt there has been to erase people's languages and cultures through, for example, assimilation schools that Indigenous people experienced, through the attack on bilingual education requiring that students who speak other languages, but really just Spanish, don't speak it, and come in, and forget that so that you can learn English and therefore succeed.

               They talk about how it has existed to erase and to vilify for us. That's how it's functioned for us. Through CSP, what he is arguing is that we need to actually intentionally sustain those communities, cultures and languages, instead of what schooling has done.

Roberto German:

That was a mouthful. No shade. I work backwards, I guess. So, thinking about the notion of sustaining culturally sustaining practices, thinking about the importance... We come from Lawrence, Massachusetts. It's kind of easier for me to speak about it this way. Lawrence, Massachusetts is a small city, very unique, historically immigrant city, predominantly Dominican. With that, you see the influence of the Dominican presence, the heritage, the background, the language, the culture, so on and so forth throughout the community. Historically, I wouldn't say you would see it as much represented in the learning experience of the students, curriculum and otherwise.

               Yeah, there might be a club for this, or we'll celebrate in that, but you don't see it ingrained into the student experience. If you don't see it ingrained, then you're definitely not going to see it sustained. When we think about ingraining something with the goal of sustaining something, we should consider what type of impact can that potentially have? We think about who it is that's in front of our learners. We're thinking about what it is that we're presenting in front of our learners. We're thinking about what the impact is not just in the short term, but what's the longterm impact if we're sustaining their cultures, if they feel like they're truly a part of this, if they're represented, if their voices are heard, if their communities are embraced, if their cultures are not just celebrated on these occasions, on... Name the occasion. Hispanic Week, or-

Lorena German:

Black History Month.

Roberto German:

Right? No, if it's actually part of the day to day learning experience and we work to sustain that... Part of the sustaining piece is working and learning as it relates to the history of our learners, where they come from, how those governments developed, what's the relationship between governments, between the United States Government and... I'm sticking with Lawrence. What's the history between the United States Government, and the government in Dominican Republic? Where has there been tensions? Where there has been influence? Has that influence been positive, negative, why?

               Allowing that, and I'm offering a small example, but allowing such an approach to empower our learners to help them buy into the experience, and ultimately to help them to take ownership of their learning experience. Ownership, that's a concept for us to talk about. When we consider whose education is it anyways, and we're saying "Hey, this is about the students," well, how can we create learning opportunities in which they feel like they're truly owning their education as opposed to education being imposed on them? I'm just wording this in my own way, but those are some of the things that I've extracted from CSP. When I read CSP, or heard Django teach about it directly, those are some of the ways that I see it applicable not just in my mind, but in the work that I've done, working in schools in Lawrence, and working in schools in Texas, and other places.

               Not that we fully realized it, but certainly grateful that I've had opportunities in leadership roles to at least start implementing steps that move us in that direction. Lorena mentioned this, that these frameworks build off of each other, so props to all of them. Props to Paris, props to Gay, props to Ladson-Billings, who was tailoring things towards the culture. Awesome, and absolutely important because culture is everywhere. To the point that you mentioned earlier, I forgot how you framed your response to this, but essentially what you were getting at is engaged work that you could say that was a broader approach because in this case we're not just talking about specifically looking at and trying to serve black kids, but we're talking about how can we create in a way that encompasses all the different cultures represented.

               That's critical, because these are concepts that everybody should be working through, thinking through. It applies to all of us because we're all carrying multiple cultures anyways. With Ladson-Billings, we're talking about the how students prefer to learn. So, trying to understand all right, what's going to get you to be most successful based on your learning style and preference? Which is different than based on the culture that you're bringing into the classroom day in and day out. This is good stuff.

Lorena German:

Well done. You said two things. I want to speak to this, okay?

Sheldon Eakins:

Go for it.

Lorena German:

[inaudible 00:20:49] that he said that I think are really important. One is, I remember when the Dakota Access Pipeline protests were happening in Standing Rock, and that Dr. Paris and his wife Ray, stopped what they were doing and they went over there. They set up shop.

Roberto German:

I remember that.

Lorena German:

Right. They ended up actually working to help them to establish a school there for the children, the children who were on site. I remember talking to them after that whole experience and him kind of... Well, I can't remember all the details that he said, but I remember what I was learning as I was listening, which is that the schooling for those children, in that specific place and moment in time, required all three of these things coming together. It required those working with them to be relevant to them, to be responsive of that situation, and to sustain them through that experience.

               One of the biggest issues that they talk about in CSP is the way that Indigenous communities in particular, because their language and their entire literacy approach is not necessarily Western in the same way. You have communities that are not alphabetized-

Sheldon Eakins:

Technically, it's Western.

Lorena German:

Right.

Sheldon Eakins:

I mean, we could argue that. I'm sorry, go ahead.

Lorena German:

You're right, you're right. Geographically. Geographically.

Sheldon Eakins:

Right, right. Geographically.

Lorena German:

It's not alphabetized in the way that we use an alphabet. We being, I'm not even sure right now, I guess Americans, I don't know, but when we say that particular text, that that's how we understand truth, and that is how you represent knowledge, you're erasing and leaving out whole community stories and histories. That's where the sustenance piece comes in. It's saying, "We are going to welcome all forms all ways in order to be really legitimately inclusive." Then when you do that, you actually sustain those communities because you have so many of those places for whom...

               I'm thinking, for example, of the Dine people in Arizona. Part of their exercise of sovereignty is to say "We have a language we're going to speak it." That's the basic. And schooling is primarily responsible for the erasure of that. Then the other thing that I want to clarify too about these three pedagogies, if you will, is that the first two, relevant and responsive, are frameworks. They have a step system if you will. They have those very specific components. CSP is a stance. It is not a framework in the same way. You're not going to get "Here are the six steps to culturally sustaining pedagogy."

               One way to think about it, which I explain in the book, is that CSP is a "why", W-H-Y. It's why you walk in the room. It's why you teach that way. It's why you teach those things. It's why you teach in the first place. It's the why really, what's your motivation.

Sheldon Eakins:

Thank you for breaking that down. Culturally Relevant, Culturally Responsive-

Roberto German:

When she says that she explains that in the book, she's referring to Textured Teaching, in case y'all were not clear.

Sheldon Eakins:

I'm loving this dynamic here between the two of you. All right, so thank you for breaking that down. Folks, you got to grab the book, Textured Teaching. To learn more, this is just a snippet of what's in there, this is just a precursor. So, you've got to get the book to learn more in detail. We're just trying to do some audio here. You got to read it. You got to read the text. I like how you framed it, Lorena, because you said basically relevant and responsive are frameworks, but I love how you said the why piece. Shout out to Dr. Michael Dominguez. He's been on this show. He has a chapter in Culturally Sustaining Pedagogy. Awesome guy out of San Diego State.

               The thing about it that I like is, I've had a conversation with Dr. Gay, and I'll put the link in the show notes for folks who want to listen to that episode. One of the things I asked her was basically that one-and-done, because we often see folks will "Oh, I have International Festival." Right now, we're recording in May. Asian awareness... those one-off opportunities and we see that a lot. She explained, no this is not a one-time thing. I don't want to get into semantics, and maybe I'm coming at this in a wrong direction, but my understanding from her was this is an ongoing thing, being relevant or responsive is an ongoing thing and it's not a one-and-done thing.

               With sustainability, it's also not a one-and-done. I guess the difference that I'm taking from what you explained, Lorena, was that it's the why piece as opposed to the framework piece. So, we agree that this shouldn't be a one-time thing, Dr. King Weekend, and then we do our thing and we keep it moving. Like you said, you're doing handshakes and stuff, and then you come back into the classroom and there's everything is European-dominated. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what I gathered from this.

Lorena German:

Yeah. One of the ways... You're right, 100%. One of the ways I've talked about this before too is anti-bias and anti-racist teaching, which is essentially what all of this is, these are "to dos" in order to be anti-bias and anti-racist teaching. One of the ways to embody this work, because this is not simply what you do from 8:00 to 3:00 PM. This is supposed to be also kind of who you are, how you engage with friends, how you treat family, how you walk your life.

               If you embody ABAR teaching, and we think about it in that very physical body way, I talk about the hands, the heart, and the head of AVAR teaching. The head is the what? It's your subject area. Oh, I'm a 9th grade biology teacher. Fantastic. Oh, okay. I'm a college rhetoric and composition professor. Fantastic. I'm a 3rd grade science teacher. Great. Okay, so that's your what. The heart is your why. What motivates you? Why are you walking it? Why did you become a teacher? Who walks in with you when you're going in there in that classroom? A question that Dr. Django Paris has posed many times. Who walks in with you when you're going in there as a teacher? So that we can stop thinking, "I'm just doing a job."

               No, ma'am, you have ancestors that came before you. Are you making them proud with the work that you are doing? There's the why. Then the hands is the how. This is how you teach the things you say you teach. I would argue, and I'm totally open to being challenged on this because this is strictly my opinion, I would argue that the head, like I said, is your subject. The why is CSP, and the how, there are many frameworks. It can be Culturally Relevant Teaching, it could be Textured Teaching. It could be Dr. Mohammed's work on... I forget exactly how to describe her model. She has a whole... Historically Responsive Literacy, I think it is.

               So, the how can be any type of framework. That's one of the ways that I describe it. You could be a culturally sustaining teacher at heart practicing a culturally relevant framework.

Sheldon Eakins:

Oh my gosh, wrong one.

Lorena German:

There you go. There you go.

Sheldon Eakins:

I got to get some better sound effects.

Lorena German:

That was good.

Roberto German:

Listen man, if you were in the club right now, it'd be the problem. Yo, DJ-

Sheldon Eakins:

See, I told you before we started recording. I said, I'm a one man band a lot of times, and so I'm working the board and trying to do this at the same time. Listen, first of all, first of all this has been really, really enriching. Is there anything else that we haven't talked about? I totally agree with what you said as far as the metaphor, the head was who you are, heart is sustaining as to why, and then the how, how are you going to approach this. I teach about multi-culture education. I teach about Culturally Responsive, Culturally Relevant, Culturally Sustaining, but I liked your approach.

               I got to definitely read through Textured Teaching just so I can learn a little bit more about your framework as well, because I think the how piece is very important. When we think about what... Let me ask you this. Let me ask you this, because now it's on my mind now. Social emotional learning. Would social emotional learning approaches be part of that how?

Lorena German:

Absolutely.

Roberto German:

We always taught in the work that we do with Multicultural Classroom, we always talk with folks. Actually, I just said this to a group/school we're working with in California last week that oftentimes folks see ABAR and SEL as separate things. We're like, no, no, no they work in conjunction. They work in conjunction. When you think about the Castle framework, for example, Castle Five, and you just go through each one of them, Self Awareness, Self Management-

Lorena German:

I forget the other ones right now.

Roberto German:

Responsible Decision Making.

Lorena German:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Roberto German:

Whatever. We're not going to break down the whole five. When you go through them you're like, "Wait a second." Yeah, these competencies are good for SEL, but these competencies are necessary also for developing as an anti-bias/anti-racist individual. I say individual because we're not just talking about educators. We're talking about growing an anti-bias, anti-racist community. We're all learners, so let's just frame it as learners. Those competencies, I think we could offer examples of... All right, let's paint this different situation as it relates to a prejudice that surfaces, or a racist situation that surfaces.

               When you look at the competency, you're like, "Wow. If we could help our young people develop those competencies, they're going to be able to better manage those situations," name the situation, "When they surface." Same thing that we tell the educators, "Hey folks who are nervous about engaging in courageous conversations about race, or managing situations that have to do with race and bias, if you develop these competencies you will be better equipped to address these situations." These are not two concepts that should be on separate islands.

               They work in conjunction with one another, and they work well. We try to frame it that way. We try to help folks be like, "Hey, don't be stressed out about what you're perceiving as I got two buckets over here that I'm carrying. This seems like a lot. Learning ABAR seems like a lot. Learning the SEL stuff seems like a lot." No, no, no. Learn them simultaneously because they work in conjunction.

Lorena German:

Yeah, let me just add, to back to your question which I think is an important one, where does SEL fall in all of that? I think it is another how. It's a toolbox. Folks who do building things, I don't mean contractors, but I mean in your house, in this house, I noticed that Roberto does not just have one box of tools. There are many different boxes-

Roberto German:

There are many. There's like two.

Lorena German:

Okay, well it looked like a lot.

Sheldon Eakins:

A hammer and a nail.

Lorena German:

There's a whole lot of different tools in those boxes, because you don't just have three tools to do all the things. In the same way for educators, I think it's okay to pull from all these different frameworks depending on your context. We know that students in Block A are not the same students in Block C after lunch. The tools that I'm going to use with that group first in the morning that's here nice, fresh and early, ready to go, it's not going to be the same after they've run around in recess and come back after.

               We have a whole different set of toolbox that we already pull. For a lot of this work, all we need to do is switch out some of those tools, refine some of the ones that we have, tweak and tighten other ones in order to really have an approach that is more wholistic and culturally sustaining, and anti-racist.

Sheldon Eakins:

Okay, I'm going go to play the devil's advocate right now.

Lorena German:

He got enough employees, brother.

Sheldon Eakins:

Let's do this for a second. I'm a brand new teacher, or I'm brand new to equity. DI. I've been teaching for years. Either/or. I'm brand new, or I've been teaching for years. How do I decide, because I can't learn four different... I got two hands. I can't learn four different... I can't learn SEL, Relevant, Responsive, Multicultural, Textured. I can't learn 10 things. What suggestion do you have when it comes to deciding on the hands, the how part, figuring out what type of strategies... Because like you said, first hour of the day they're fresh in, they're probably a little bit as quiet. I've got maybe some kids sleeping maybe, I don't know.

               Versus fourth hour of the day, the last hour of the day, is going to look different. But I only have two hands. How would you suggest us kind of figuring out what is the best strategy or process for us when it comes to the how part?

Lorena German:

That's a great question, and I appreciate that question versus where to start. I'm tired of that question. People know where to start. That is an important, how do I as this new teacher, whether to the field or to the work, where do I start essentially? How do I know which of these to choose? That's why the self work has to come first. Teachers love jumping into the how. They want to know, "What's my checklist? What book should I teach? What question do I ask the student? What's the worksheet I'm going to do?" All of that, I can give it to you, and you can still do damage.

               You could be teaching Angie Thomas's The Hate You Give, a fantastic book, and still do it wrong because you're a part of the curriculum. We don't like to accept that as teachers. We think curriculum is unbiased, and it's just content. It's nomenclature.

Sheldon Eakins:

Who thinks that?

Lorena German:

Absolutely, people... Listen.

Sheldon Eakins:

[inaudible 00:36:25] Tonight Show.

Lorena German:

Go ahead and ask a math teacher. Go ask a math teacher. They'll tell you.

Sheldon Eakins:

Okay, maybe a math teacher. Okay, I'll give you that one.

Lorena German:

Math and science teacher, they be on that. I love them-

Roberto German:

Listen, y'all are going to get us in trouble with math and science [inaudible 00:36:35]-

Sheldon Eakins:

Sorry math teachers. Okay. Okay. Okay.

Lorena German:

... Okay? I have many math and science teacher friends. We have educators who really do think that. So, the self work has to be where you start. This why the why piece... We need our heart to live. Physically. That has to be very clear. Once you've done some of that work and started to acknowledge, "Okay, these are some of my gaps. These are also some of my strengths," that will start to point you in a certain direction. If you start to identify that one of your gaps is "I really don't know well historical context for when I teach. How can I bring that in?"

               Well, that's going to point you in a particular direction. You might be headed to Dr. Goldie Mohammed's work. "I really need to think more about how do I bring in my students' culture when I'm teaching?" Okay, well then you might be looking more towards Dr. Billings' work, or maybe Dr. Gay. "I kind of have all of that. I really want to think about how can I bring more activism to my work? How can I get students to think about society in modern day, and figure out how to use the subject that I'm teaching to help them make meaning of the world?" Well, then you're headed toward Textured Teaching.

               There are so many other frameworks. The how piece is complex, and there are so many opportunities, and you evolve. You evolve, because one framework for now, you might need a new framework in five years, and that's fine. But where you start is the me. That's the self work. That's the harder work, and teachers skip that.

Roberto German:

In light of a couple of things, and I'll try to be brief, but in talking about the self work, I had mentioned before how SEL and ABAR work in conjunction. So, self awareness and self management are two pieces of that SEL stuff. As you're doing that self work and you're building your self awareness, then it's going to reveal some things as she just mentioned. Then as it's revealing some things, then you're responding to it. You're managing that, that revelation like, "All right, I'm aware now. Now I got to do something about it. Well, let me manage that." Which hopefully then also influences your responsible decision making.

               The next piece I want to add to that is, focusing on relationships because I think it's important to emphasize the fact that a lot of the most impactful educators are the ones that have taken time to invest in their students, build relationship with their students, get to know them as individuals, but also get to know where they're coming from, community and be a part of the community. That's a whole nother episode. As they're investing and building those relationships with their students, then that should inform their practice. That could point you towards what you find out about whether it's a particular student or the collective, could also challenge you to think "You know what, now I need something that's going to offer me some concrete steps, that's going to offer me a framework, or that's going to help me be stronger in my stance." Then that can point you towards Ladson-Billings or Gay, or Paris, or Hedmon.

               So, building those relationships, understanding who your learners are, understanding their needs, and using that data to respond to that. Then certainly, understanding the group as a collective. What do my students need in this particular season? As Lorena mentioned, we evolve, things evolve, and so it'll change for that group, but certainly it will change for you as an individual as you continue on your journey, and you're growing on your journey. You have a greater understanding. You have expanded your toolbox. Now, it might be time for you to shift into something else that's not only going to strengthen your practice, but perhaps what it'll do is give you further tools to be able to support others.

               That's what we want to see. We want to see individuals moving along the trajectory where now it's not just about bettering yourself, but finding ways to better others who might be less informed, or maybe they're just on the other end of the spectrum and they're at a place where you were at some other point.

Sheldon Eakins:

Loving it. Y'all have been awesome, by the way. I'm glad we were able to make this happen. I consider both of you as providing voices in leading equity. Lorena, I want to start with you, why don't you take us home with your final word of advice to our listeners?

Lorena German:

We are in a delicate and tumultuous time in our nation. It is both challenging, but also an opportunity. I think that for educators what's going to get us through, what's going to sustain us through this, is being very clear about your purpose and your why. Why are in a classroom? What does it take to keep you there? What do you need to do for yourself because we cannot trust these systems? What is your goal with students? What is the reason you're going to keep getting up to do this every day?

               So, being very clear and centered, and focused on that why, and having an important enough purpose is what's going to get us through this season. That's what it is, it's a season. This will be over.

Sheldon Eakins:

This will be over. This is just a season. I don't know, does it seem like it was a season and then a drought, and then it came right back again.

Lorena German:

I know.

Sheldon Eakins:

Roberto, what about you? What are your final thoughts?

Roberto German:

Make your moments meaningful. Live with purpose, and strive to impact others in a positive way. I think we have enough negativity that we come across, whether its social media or society in general for lifetimes, and so let's be outsiders in the sense of daring to be different enough, daring to be courageous enough, and daring to be invested in one another enough that we will live with intentionality, live with purpose, and make meaning of the moment that we're in.

               Yes, this is a season, but I agree with you, it feels like a season that ends and circled back. Then it ends up just feeling like a very long season. We're able to better press forward when do so in community.

Sheldon Eakins:

Love it. All right, folks, y'all heard it yourself. We had an opportunity to have some folks that are on this show, Lorena and Roberto. Man, it's been an honor to have you on. If we have some folks that want to connect with you, what's the best way to reach you online? How they can get ahold of your publications and things like that?

Roberto German:

They can us online at Multicultural Classroom across all platforms, our website MulticulturalClassroom.com, but we're also on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, TikTok @MulticulturalClassroom. Those that are interested in purchasing texts or teaching, they could do so through our website or through HeinemannPublishing.com. If you're interested in purchasing The Anti-Racist Teacher Reading Instruction Workbook, you could do so at MulticulturalClassroom.com. Those that shop through Amazon, both texts are also available there.

Sheldon Eakins:

What's the name of your podcast again?

Roberto German:

Hour Classroom. The Hour Classroom Podcast. I'm going to have to have you on very soon, sir.

Sheldon Eakins:

It would be an honor. It would be an honor. We got to make that happen.

Roberto German:

Absolutely. Absolutely. Maybe [inaudible 00:45:19] will show up as a guest interviewer.

Sheldon Eakins:

Well, okay. I'm definitely there. I'm definitely there.

Lorena German:

You better stop. You better stop.

Sheldon Eakins:

I'm definitely there on that one.

Roberto German:

I'm just making sure he shows up to the... I'm just making sure Sheldon shows up to the interview.

Sheldon Eakins:

No, you know you I'll be there, man. I'll be there. You let me know when, I'll be on there. I would be honored. Thank you for that. Lorena and Robert German, it has been [inaudible 00:45:45]-

Roberto German:

He's still rolling his Rs, man.

Sheldon Eakins:

It's been a pleasure. Hey, I put in work. I put in work.

Roberto German:

Working.

Sheldon Eakins:

[inaudible 00:45:52].

Roberto German:

One man show. We added to his job.

Lorena German:

He does all the things.

Roberto German:

He does the editing. He does the interviewing. He does the show notes, and he rolls his Rs.

Lorena German:

Listen, he does it all.

Sheldon Eakins:

And I roll my Rs. Take note.

Roberto German:

[inaudible 00:46:05].

Sheldon Eakins:

Thank you again for your time. It's been an honor. Thank you.

Roberto German:

Thanks, Sheldon.

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