Sheldon Eakins:

What's up, folks. Dr. Eakins is here with another episode. Today, I'm bringing on a good friend of mine. Dr. Carole Renee Collins is here with us today, and we're going to be talking about culturally responsive leadership. By the way, if you're looking for training or keynotes, I'm just getting back from Arizona. Shout out to Pendergast School District. Had an awesome time on stage. Such a great, positive vibe out there. But if you're looking for some work, I'm happy to work with you. Feel free to reach out to the Leading Equity Center and let's work together. In today's episode, Dr. Collins talks about the work that she does with up-and-coming principals, school leaders, and just the different things that she does to help them as they're in the process of becoming leaders. So we talk about the importance of facing history when leading, strategies to deal with challenges, critical questions to ask ourselves as leaders, and public relations and social issues. Dr. Carole Collins is a native of Indianapolis, Indiana, and a Chicagoan for three decades. She holds a PhD in educational policy studies from the University of Illinois at Chicago.

               Welcome to The Leading Equity Podcast. My name is Dr. Sheldon L. Eakins. And for over a decade, I've helped educators become better advocates for their students. What is an advocate? An advocate is someone who recognizes that we don't live in a just society. Advocates aren't comfortable with the status quo and are willing to speak up on behalf of others. No matter where you are and your journey towards ensuring all of your students are equipped with the resources they need to thrive, I'm here to help you build your knowledge and confidence to ensure equity at your school.

               Welcome, advocates, to another episode of The Leading Equity Podcast, a podcast that focuses on supporting educators with the tools and resources necessary to ensure equity at their schools. Today's special guest is Dr. Carole Renee Collins. So without further ado, Carole, thank you so much for joining us today.

Carole Collins:

Thank you, Sheldon, for having me.

Sheldon Eakins:

Pleasure is always mine. You and I connected a couple of months ago at IDEAcon, and I'm just really excited for the opportunity to have you on the show. I had an opportunity to go to your session, and I was blown away, and I said, "You got to be on the show." So I'm really glad you're here.

Carole Collins:

Well, thank you. I'm excited about the work you're doing and the opportunity to bring folks to the platform to discuss issues of equity.

Sheldon Eakins:

Yes. So I know you, but I would love for you to share with our audience a little bit about yourself and what you currently do.

Carole Collins:

Well, I'm a career educator. Prior to education, I was, believe it or not, a financial representative, and I was in corporate America. But while I was in corporate America, I learned a lot about issues of inequity, especially as it related to finance, economics, how race and social class impacted access and opportunity, especially in the money game. And that inspired me to actually change my focus, especially during those years of apartheid when Nelson Mandela was still imprisoned. So I made the decision at that point consciously to become an urban educator. I've been very blessed to have had a longstanding career. I was a Chicago public schools teacher. I had the opportunity to lead in Chicago public schools as a assistant principal and a principal. I've also led as a principal in South Cook County. And then I've been a district level leader in several states, Iowa, where I directed curriculum and instruction for Sioux City Community Schools.

               Also, I had the opportunity to be a chief academic officer in Hartford, Connecticut, and then I returned to Chicago around 2014 and became a superintendent and served a year in one of the districts in South Cook, a high school district, 227. After serving there, I joined the faculty of educational leadership for Eastern Illinois University in our College of Education. So I'm really pleased, Sheldon, to have been there over the past six years, working with some dynamic professionals, former superintendents who led throughout the state. I feel as though the work is very enriching. We train and develop all of our candidates who are primarily seeking to be principals and seeking to be superintendents throughout the state of Illinois. And that is what I do. And I'm able to engage in research and also community service, university service with my primary responsibility being training and developing the next generation of leaders for education.

Sheldon Eakins:

So you have an extensive career and professionalism, and I want to chat with you because I want to support our school leaders, our up-and-coming principals and our current principals. And I want to start off by asking you, what does it mean to be a culturally responsive school leader?

Carole Collins:

Wow, Sheldon, that's a powerful question. That's a very powerful question because with Illinois standards for cultural responsiveness for teachers and leaders, there's a lot of question out there as to what does that really mean. And some folks are supportive of those standards. Others are not. Someone who believes very strongly in equity and access for all families, all children, to me, being a culturally responsive leader is acknowledging that we are public servants and that as public servants, we have the responsibility to understand those that we serve. And for me, that means every leader has to look deeply into his or herself, identify their values, understand their own identity, and understand their positionality and how that impacts the way in which they lead their community because concurrently, there must be a respect and inclusion of the positionality, the dispositions, the values, and the beliefs of those that we serve.

               So to me, cultural responsiveness is basically, Sheldon, marrying those two. Who am I? How do I enter this space? And who are you and how do you enter this space? And how can we come together and understand one another? I think that in itself initially is the base level of even being able to be responsive as it relates to, okay, what does that mean with pedagological practices? What does that mean to decolonize the curriculum? What does that mean in terms of offering equitable opportunities for parents to engage with us in the educational system and be part of a democratic process? So the first point is understanding that we come from different experiences. We are in a society where there have been systems of oppression. How has that impacted us and how do we now recognize how it impacts those that we serve?

Sheldon Eakins:

Got you. Okay. Now, one of the things that you mentioned that I really thought was interesting was you break it down into, as a school leader. I need to recognize who I am and then how do I marry that with who are you. I'm assuming that's your community, your stakeholders involved in the school. How do we start with the who am I? What type of activities or what do you do with your principal candidates to do that self-discovery?

Carole Collins:

Well, I like to start with identity, and I do also support various districts and schools and opportunities for professional development, helping leaders to understand who they are. And that comes from identity. And we look at that identity wheel, and we look at social identity, and we look at personal identity. So that social identity is what's on the outside. How do we show up in the space? And that's a question we ask leaders. Who are you? And help them to decipher how who they are and what they show up as in the space has often dictated what they believe themselves to be and how they function, and also what others believe them to be and how they function, and also how they don't function or how we don't function. We have to always be cognizant of what we don't do just as cognizant as we are of what we do do.

               So those are some of the questions I want my leaders to address. Who are you? What does it mean to be? I'm an African American woman, descendant of the enslaved in this country. What does it mean growing up black in America with my background as a woman experiencing my working class background, growing up in Indianapolis, Indiana? How did that shape my identity? Is it the same as maybe a colleague who grew up in Chicago? Is it the same as a colleague who might be of a different race or a different gender who grew up downstate in Tuscola, Illinois or something of that nature? No. The answer is no. All right? And we have to begin to recognize how these influences impacted us in our upbringing, in our thought process development, and also our attitudes which are formed, and then the attitudes guide the action.

               So what I like to do is have my leaders just ask themselves, "What is my mantra? Who am I and why do I lead? Why have I shown up in this space to lead? Is it a belief that a morality issue within me says I must go out and do good to the community? Is it my desire to build relationships? Is that why I lead? All right. Is there some connection with desire to have power and authority? Why am I leading? And what does that look like in my community? What does it look like in my family? What does it look like in my background? And what does it look like in the organization I lead? And is that a good connection with the organization and the people that I serve? Is it working? Is it not?"

               So I like my leaders to really do some internal reflection, and that's often something that they don't do because they're not used to it. Often, if we're born into spaces where we look around and everybody appears to look like us and think like us, we often miss some prime opportunities to really build that emotional intelligence and dig deeper and understand who we are and who others around us are or are not.

Sheldon Eakins:

So I'm going to play the other side because I would say over the last couple of years, we've gotten a lot of pushback where a lot of parents and Congress folks are basically saying, "Race shouldn't matter. Your identities, those type of things, shouldn't matter. Let's stick to leadership or let's stick to the curriculum and instruction," things like that. But it sounds like you're advocating, no, you need to start with understanding your identity and how that impacts your reasons why you want to be a leader, your reasons why you are in a space that might be different than some of your colleagues. When we have a lot of folks that are saying those things do not matter, what response would you give to them?

Carole Collins:

Well, first of all, I embrace everyone's perception of what matters or doesn't matter in their lives, but I would also push back on the folks and I would say, "Does your upbringing and does your exposures, do your exposures and your upbringing matter to you? Then let's take Christmas off the table. We just had Easter. Did you celebrate Easter? That might be a good question. You want to celebrate? Let's take it off to the table." I celebrated it too, Sheldon. But it's because of my what? My background. That's how I was raised. All right? To celebrate. So if you begin to ask people, "Well, let's start dismissing a few things that... What do you value? Okay. Let's take that away. Let's take that away. Let's take that away. It doesn't matter anymore."

               That could also help folks to contextualize, "Yes, it does matter. It's very embedded in us. But sometimes we take that for granted. And it's usually not until we're in a space where we're around people who are very different from us that we then say, "Wait a minute. This feels different. It's out of my familiar." That gives us the indicator of how much the familiar matters to us. And so if we look at our history as a country, all right, and we look at the hierarchy of our social condition. There's no way that we cannot say that race has not had an impact on outcome in this country. And we have to face our history in order to be able to facilitate a positive future. And we can often do that, brother, so broadly when we look at other countries and even as we look at the conflict today in Eastern Europe, and we can look at the dynamics, and those of us who remember the USSR and remember how those particular regions were connected.

               And now, we look today. We have a history. We have a viewpoint because we saw it. We saw it over time. We saw the fall of the wall when that occurred in Eastern Europe. Okay. So it's all about what? A process and the context and a set of situations that compound on one another and impact one another. Why can't we look at our own history and see how that has transpired over time right here in America, as it relates to race, race relations, and outcomes for various groups of people within our society? And so if we connect education as an American right, which it is, and we connect how education has been formed and the powers that be that have constructed education as we know it, traditional American public education, we have to acknowledge those particular impacts. Much of them were racially motivated and gender motivated and social class motivated.

               We can take it back, brother, to Thomas Jefferson. We can take it back to the elitism and the beginnings of who education was for, which was white, educated males, land-owning. And even we can take it to Horace Mann and the idea of the common school and how other groups began to benefit from education. Then we can bring it right on up to the civil rights movement. We can take it after post-slavery. We can look at the idea of the formations of historically black colleges for those who were freed from slavery, ancestors who came out of that. We know that race has been very much integrated into this American system. We can look at Native education or Indian education acts. Hopefully, I'm using the right terminology to my native indigenous brothers and sisters. We can look at ELL, English language learners, our brothers and sisters who are speaking English as one of the languages they're learning.

               We know that culture, race, condition, segregation, we can go on and on and on, deeply embedded. And anyone who doesn't agree with that, it's up for a great conversation. And I think if we contextualize it in history, perhaps they'll see just how impactful that has been.

Sheldon Eakins:

All right. I love what you're saying. I'm going to push back. Not that I don't agree, but again, I started keeping up with Fox News to see what they're talking about these days because a lot of the stuff that's being said on channels such as Fox News and more conservative mediums has really dictated some of the support with the Leading Equity Center and other folks that I know with social-emotional learning and all these different words that are "buzzwords" these days that are all wrapped underneath this misunderstanding of what critical race theory is. Based off of what I heard you say, there was a lot of systemic things that have impacted racial lines. When it comes to leadership and when it comes to recognizing again, where I come from, who I am, and my purpose behind wanting to be a school leader, what are some things that you teach or strategies that you teach your up-and-coming school leaders when it comes to dealing with these challenges that are centered around critical race theory?

Carole Collins:

Although I have some knowledge of critical race theory, I'm not a person who's deeply, deeply steeped in understanding all the theoretical nuances and key elements of critical race theory. But in terms of being able to integrate them, primarily, I prepare middle America leaders. And if those in your audience scope understand the state of Illinois, you have large concentrations of people of color, African Americans, Latinx, and other communities in major cities like Chicago and in pockets here and there and some of the mid-size what I'll call rural urbans, the Peorias, the Danvilles, the Decaturs, the Springfields, the Urbanas, Champagnes, and et cetera, East St. Louis down south. I am a Hoosier. So [inaudible 00:17:31] East Chicago. That's the other way. I'm born in Indianapolis. But when you think about that, you have pockets of what I would say would be non-white populations.

               But throughout the state, you have a lot of rural communities. And many of my candidates are primarily white leaders. They are primarily white leaders, and they are preparing to lead. And I like to think of my candidate, Sheldon, as being prepared through Eastern and through the work with me and the members of our faculty, that they will be prepared to lead in any community. And that's important. And in order to do that, they have to examine their exposures, what they have experienced and what they have not, and be able to look at that from a standpoint of what is my student base, what is my parent base experiencing?

               So when you think about the preparation for principalship... And I support principal candidates and their development. You've got that element of the expectation of the state of Illinois, that they do visitation. If they don't have 20% or more students who are classified as non-white in their district when they're doing their practicum as principal candidates, then they're expected to visit a school that reflects diversity. And I applaud Illinois for ensuring that. They're expected to go into a diverse environment and be able to look at the practices of that school as they prepare for candidacy. So that's an example of how that goes with our practicum process in order to become certified and licensed and endorsed to be a principal in the state of Illinois.

               But as I think about one of the classes I teach, which is focused on understanding our community, understanding public relations as a school leader and understanding finance as a school leader, a big segment of that is teaching about community. And that's one of my practices that I really enjoy. I have my students do a community scan. Who is in your community? All right. Who are the external power sources? Who are the internal sources within your school? What are the values of your community?

               I have my students do a demographic scope. And as they write their papers, they focus on the demographics. I say, "I don't want to just know little things like where X, Y, Z, this race or X, Y, Z, that race. I want to know what are the connections and how does your community flow?" All right. Have you had economic downturn? Who has come into your community? There are some smaller, primarily white, small, rural areas that have had tremendous influxes of Latin population, those Latino and Latinx workers who are coming in, beginning their lives in these communities. And these communities have had no exposure to understanding and really supporting English language learners. Those are some very powerful transitions. All right? And so even by starting with my white, rural folk, my leaders who are developing themselves and have been in these white spaces primarily, they're pushed through working with me to look at the different issues and different ways of knowing and doing. Even within their white populations.

               What's going on with our lower-income white students? All right? There are communities where some students are living in trailer homes, who are more transitional. They're moving around more so. There are populations that are solidly middle class. Even when you look at a homogenously white population, what does that mean? How do we meet the needs? Even if that's where we start diversity, how do we meet the needs of those particular students and their families? How do we communicate effectively to reach them? Is the website enough? Well, no, it's not enough, especially if I don't have access to a website or access to a computer in my home. No. It's not enough. So I would say even if we take it off of race, Sheldon, because I know some folks don't want to have the race conversation, which is important for me to actually acknowledge there are folks that don't want to have it.

               But it's unfortunate because when you think about the beauty of America and America being one of the few countries that survived with such diversity, I think it is critically important that we do have that conversation so that we can hold our democracy together. We can learn more about one another and grow with one another and confront some of the idiosyncrasies and the misunderstandings we have of one another. But as you ask me the question, and some of the populations that conversation about race tends to be pushed aside. Even if you start with a homogenously white population, I'll use that as an example. It could be homogenously black, what have you, where the individuals are the same race, there's always diversity.

               And so I push my leaders to say, "Let's start here right in my little district in Central Illinois. What does diversity look like here?" Now, when I prepare for my principalship and I have to go into a district that is at least 20% students of color, what does that look like? Do I see some commonalities? Do I see differences? How do things play out? How does discipline play out? What does the curriculum look like? Are all the families engaged or not? Who's at the decision-making table? Is there full democratization for the community and the educational process? And these are some of the questions I think are critically important for our leaders to ask as they embark upon their leadership journey.

Sheldon Eakins:

I love that you're bringing up the fact that when we think about culture, we often default to race. However, culture I is not limited to race. And I loved how you described even if you have a population that is predominantly one race, for example, there's diversity there. And I love that you brought that up. If I'm a school leader, and you know how political climate happens, there's some issue that happens within our community, either on a local scale or on a national scale, or even on a global scale. Do you believe that it's important for school leaders to either issue statements as on behalf of the school in their support or what are your thoughts on the public relations side of social issues that happen in the community?

Carole Collins:

Well, I don't think because a public school is a social institution, often society mirrors schooling, and schooling mirrors society. So there is that entwinement, to a degree. I do think it's important as leaders that we are non-political, all right? But what I will say, Sheldon, is that we be purpose-driven. And whatever particular social issues that are engaging perhaps or impacting our purpose, our mission, our vision, the mantra that perhaps our board of education, our superintendents, our community, we've agreed to, then we have to address it. So if we've agreed hypothetically, if we were to think about a mission, vision, Sheldon that says that we will ensure... As I think about Chicago public schools, I cannot quote verbatim, but the powerful mission and vision is all children and all communities, the idea of the instructional core, engaging with the families, engaging the awareness of who each child is. Chicago indicates it's committed to that. And I can say that as a former Chicago principal, that I value that. All right?

               So when you think of that, what does that mean? It means we have to say to ourselves, what does certain community, or what do certain communities' situations do to our community? Such as if our students are living in fear or as we look at situations with policing that have been problematic for some communities, we can't turn our back on the impact of what that means when a child walks through the door in school and they've had a weekend where they've known someone who's been shot, or they felt like there was something going on in the community. I want to make sure Sheldon on this platform that I say it in support as a daughter of a Police Lieutenant. My deceased father was Indianapolis Police Department. He served IPD, came out as a Lieutenant after roughly 21 years of service.

               I say it proudly, not in any way against policing, but recognizing so many of the issues that have confronted us recently as it relates to that process. So if we know that students are dealing in environments where they're dealing with regular confrontations or things of that nature, do we as a school that is socially-emotionally oriented, that cares about the overall level of emotional intelligence that our children have and that we have for our children, do we have to stop sometimes and address these issues? Yes, we do. We have to address it from the context of how they impact the child. And when we think about Charlotte Danielson and we get to level four in terms of teacher effectiveness, we know that children being able to tell their story, being able to move as leaders in the classroom are what we expect. And so our instructional core should encourage that. It should encourage the embracing of the experiences of our community and of our children and of their families.

               And does that mean that there's going to be a focus on social issues? Definitely, because we live in a society, and that's what we experience on a daily basis. I would caution leaders not to politicize those. I would caution leaders to ensure that there's equity and individuals being able to share what they feel as it relates to the educational process. But I would also say to leaders, make sure that it doesn't allow for insult and injury to community members, and that there be a way in which we allow for democratic voices from our children and from their families as it relates to what they're experiencing. But then, we also create spaces where all communities feel protected and respected.

Sheldon Eakins:

Well, help me understand that better because when you say don't politicize things, but then acknowledge and address that these issues are maybe impacting your community. Give me an example. What does that look like? Because I want to make sure that our school leaders understand because in my mind, everything is political. So how can we not politicize something yet still be supportive of our community members that are being impacted by various social issues?

Carole Collins:

I hear you, Sheldon. See, when I think political, brother, I'm thinking that word politics. That's my first degree, is in politics, political science. So I'm thinking the idea of a two-party system. That's what I'm thinking about when I use the word. But then again, if I also define political as when you think of Bolman and dealing with the four frames of leadership, and you think of political as more of relationships, all right, I see understanding relationships as critically important to school leaders, but I don't see it as a matter of which party are you aligned to, Democrat, Republican or what have you, Independent. I don't think that needs to ever be the discussion. And it shouldn't be. It's unethical to bring that into the fold. I believe strongly as a leader that we need to be very careful about that.

               But if it's issues of, okay, poverty. What's the impact of poverty? How do we ensure that all of our children have their basic necessities met? All right. Safe communities. What has been the impact of the unfortunate death of George Floyd a couple of years ago? How did it impact you young people? What did you feel about your community? Are you safe in your community? Those kind of issues should be discussed as they relate to children being able to effectively move through the educational process. Does that make sense to you, Sheldon? My philosophy is, is that political? Is that a Democratic Republican conversation? I don't feel that it has to be. I think it's a purposeful conversation about real life and how we navigate life and what makes us successful and how we feel equitable and well-served in our society. But I don't think it's our job to bring it in as it relates to party conversations. Does that make sense to you, Sheldon?

Sheldon Eakins:

Okay. I'm with you. Okay. I hear what you're saying. That makes sense. I think the only piece that I would add to, or maybe this is more of a question to get your thoughts, is the language. Okay. The rhetoric, I'm just say the rhetoric that we utilize can seem like it's coming from one side or the other. Is there neutral, if that even makes sense, neutral rhetoric that we can say to support our stakeholders with issues that are happening within our community that doesn't lean left or right? I guess that's what I'm trying to ask.

Carole Collins:

That's a powerful question. I appreciate you asking it and I appreciate you pushing back because I think it's just exactly what you're doing is what everybody needs to do so that we can have an opportunity to share what we think and have it respectfully understood the way we mean it to be. And I appreciate you making sure that's what happens on this platform. So the best way I can answer that question would be if you were to ask a group of students in any community, "What does safety look like to you on the streets? How do you want to feel when you're walking down your street at night?" How many will say under siege or fearful or worried about getting killed? How many will say that, Sheldon?

Sheldon Eakins:

Depends.

Carole Collins:

How many will say that that's what they'd like to feel?

Sheldon Eakins:

That they want to feel under siege?

Carole Collins:

Yeah. Do you think anybody wants to feel under siege-

Sheldon Eakins:

No. I hope not.

Carole Collins:

... in their community?

Sheldon Eakins:

I hope not.

Carole Collins:

I hope not, right?

Sheldon Eakins:

Yeah.

Carole Collins:

But some may say to us, "I feel that way. I'm worried about this. I'm not worried about that." Or what have you. That's what I think schools should allow for students to be able to discuss and then be able to discuss why they feel that way or what they think is necessary in order not to feel that way.

               And I don't think that has to be called political. I think that's purposeful dialogue because ultimately one could then say, "Well, it looks like this group of people feel this way, or perhaps that group of people feel that way." And then they maybe see some cross feelings. But I think necessarily calling it political, that automatically segments people into a group instead of allowing them to express their truth. And I bet very few people want to be like Trayvon with the Skittles. I don't think too many people want that in honor of him. All right?

               And if students are having that group of a dialogue and a teacher's facilitating that, to me, that is cultural responsivity in many ways because we create an opportunity for children or young people or adolescents to share their truths in and around social issues and build their critical thinking. And by building their critical thinking, they're building their ability, what, to negotiate, to navigate, to peacefully coexist, to advocate for their beliefs. Isn't that what the American way guarantees us?

Sheldon Eakins:

I'm with you. Okay. Thank you. I wanted to dig a little deeper and I appreciate you coming with it. I think that that's important because I used to be a school principal as well. I remember being a school principal during Michael Brown and just trying to figure out things. And so I think that this stuff is very helpful for those who are just trying to understand the language to utilize without, again, revealing if you will, our political stance, but still being supportive of our community in a way that's beneficial to the community.

               Now, some would argue that especially during this time, especially when it comes to our stance and our belief that it is important to show where we're coming from, however, there's others that will say, "You know what? That's not your place. It's just more of being supportive," because a lot of the issues that do happen don't necessarily impact us directly as school leaders. It might impact a certain group or community, but that community may not be the same background, ethnicity, or race that we have. And so we may not be able to relate. But still being able to come with an empathetic approach, I think is very important. So I appreciate your words.

Carole Collins:

You know what, Sheldon? I wanted to thank you so much, brother. I also wanted to say that I think the book researcher, Pati O. Clark, tremendous research, I believe she was out she's out of Northwestern University. I think it was called Black Picket Fences, researcher. If I'm incorrectly quoting the title of your book, I apologize. But I used it for my dissertation, if I recall. We were really one step away. It was a study of Chatham, one of the South Side Chicago, solidly middle class neighborhoods. In some communities, Sheldon, we're one step away from all of that. I don't know what leader can say that they are totally dismissed from the condition of their community or a community. And the reason I say that... I'll speak from my own context.

               Do I have family members that didn't make it through school traditionally? Yes. Do I have family members that may have experienced the penal system? Yes. And I'm a PhD like you. Yeah. I have family members like that. My own father left high school early, went to the United States, served under the colored troops, Truman, 1945 to 1949. He didn't have completed his education. He served his country. He came back. He took college courses. He became a policeman. And I shared with you earlier his career. So we're always one step away. As researcher, Pati O. Clark indicated there's so many fragile communities where you're one step away. And I'm not speaking for all African Americans, but I'm speaking for myself. The fragility is there where even if you are middle class or consider yourself middle class, you're one step away from potentially not being in that category in many households. That's the way I have experienced this life.

               If you look at a certain town, how far away are we from poverty? We can keep ourselves away from it. And I'm in Chicago. I can pretend that I'm away from poverty depending on what block I go on. But poverty's all around me. And the same exists in Central Illinois. There's always areas of poverty. And as my candidates tell me, yes, it exists. They know that it exists. From rural town to rural town, the differences economically throughout the state exist. So if we want to pretend and act as though we don't know or we are not sure, as leaders, we can do that. But I encourage leaders, even if they're not exposed to it firsthand, that they find a way to learn about it. And that comes from being able to do effective scans of our community, asking good questions so that we hear the original voices of the people and recognizing our commitment and responsibility to serving all.

Sheldon Eakins:

Loving it. Loving it. Carole, you are bringing the fire today. I definitely consider you as providing a voice in leading equity. I'd love for you to share maybe one word of advice that you can provide to our listeners.

Carole Collins:

So the word of advice I can provide to our listeners, Sheldon, is to keep listening to you, brother, because let me say this to you. I'm so proud of you. I'm so proud of you as a, can I say millennial, if that's the correct... You're a millennial, I believe, right?

Sheldon Eakins:

I always get them mixed up.

Carole Collins:

Oh, no.

Sheldon Eakins:

I think-

Carole Collins:

I think you are. I think you are. And I say that because you're keeping it alive. You're keeping the dialogue alive. I believe as a generation X-er, I believe that there was that period, Sheldon, where I grew up, my first election I voted in was Ronald Reagan. I didn't vote for Ronald Reagan, but that's political, though. But that was the first election that I had the opportunity to be part of. And so I think we were growing up, coming off of the sacrifice of the civil rights movement, the sacrifice that the brothers and sisters laid down of all races, creeds, and colors in the civil rights movement, and the move for equity in this country.

               And I think that growing up in the '80s, coming out of that, there was a belief that we've arrived. We've done certain things. We've arrived in the '80s and '90s. And then now, coming at this point in my career, being in for the 25-plus years, seeing people like yourself who are saying, "But wait a minute. Stop. Look. Listen." And you're kind of saying, "Whoa, horsey. Let's stop here and let's look." And unfortunately, there's been some horrific examples in our society, like we've talked about, that have caused folks to stop, look, and listen. But I'm very pleased that they are. Many are stopping, looking, listening. Even if there's opposing viewpoints, we're creating platforms like this, Sheldon, that allow people to speak through technology and for the world or the listening audience, however broad that be, to hear.

               So I think my final words after that long description would be just to say keep on keeping on, and be aware. Folks need to stay woke. They need to listen and learn and engage in platforms like this so they can hear viewpoints, whether they be divergent, whether they be concurrent, but keeping the platform so that we can consistently be able to ask good questions and advocate for what we believe and create opportunities for others to come to the platform and do the same. I think that that is the beauty of democratization, that it does give us the chance to hold our values, respect one another's opportunities to engage, and live, what do we say? Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness in this country, and offering these type of platforms where we can consistently challenge ourselves to understand what that means and what that doesn't mean as we walk this walk of educational leadership. So thank you so much, Sheldon, for being a change agent and the work. I much appreciate it. And thank you for allowing me to be your guest today.

Sheldon Eakins:

That means a lot. Thank you, Carole. If we have some folks that want to connect with you, that want to reach out, what's the best way to connect with you online?

Carole Collins:

Well, we talked about it. I'm developing. You are you a scholar when it comes to technology. Remember when we met?

Sheldon Eakins:

Yeah.

Carole Collins:

I told you I'm like a middle schooler or sixth grader. I talked to a sixth grader. I'm moving up, but I'm definitely not a scholar in it. But I would say I have LinkedIn out there, Sheldon. That's a platform. And you said, "Carole, let's get with it. Move beyond the email." Didn't you, Sheldon?

Sheldon Eakins:

I told you at least get on Twitter. So did you get a chance-

Carole Collins:

You told me to get on Twitter.

Sheldon Eakins:

Did you get a chance to get a handle?

Carole Collins:

I have a handle, but I haven't been tweeting, brother. So we got to get it up on that. I have a great logo that I have for some of the work that I do for the other work that I do. And I thank Pauly Neekins for that. And I would say let's do LinkedIn. Would that work, Sheldon?

Sheldon Eakins:

Tell me. It's LinkedIn or-

Carole Collins:

Yeah. I think LinkedIn and I think that you say email's obsolete, right?

Sheldon Eakins:

I mean, email can work too. So if you want to share your email.

Carole Collins:

Yeah. I will share my email. Okay, [email protected]. So I think both of those would be appropriate for this particular venue where we are today in this podcast. I think that would probably be the best way. And then of course, Sheldon, I think if anyone wanted to channel anything through you, then you would channel it to me while you're teaching me how to be a better tweeter.

Sheldon Eakins:

Absolutely.

Carole Collins:

Right. Or you can tweet some if you want, but I'll go in and out of that. But I think I'm moving forward and I'm encompassing as much as I can. It's called not quite baby steps, but middle school steps.

Sheldon Eakins:

Middle school steps. I like that.

Carole Collins:

Not scholar steps. You're the scholar of technology.

Sheldon Eakins:

Okay. Well, Carole, it's always a pleasure to catch up with you and see how things are going. We've been keeping in touch. So I appreciate that.

Carole Collins:

We sure have.

Sheldon Eakins:

So thank you again for your time. Glad we were able to get you on the show.

Carole Collins:

And thank you so much and keep on keeping on. Peace and blessings. Thanks, Sheldon.

Sheldon Eakins:

This episode was brought to you by the Leading Equity Center. For more podcast interviews and resources, head on over to leadingequitycenter.com.

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