Sheldon [00:00:00]:

Welcome advocates to another episode of the Leading Equity podcast. A podcast that focuses on supporting educators with the tools and resources necessary to ensure equity, at their skulls. Folks, we have a special guest today. We're gonna talk about The criminal is so brought to you by the leading equity center. So my more podcast interviews and resources heading over to the reequity citizens.com. How America criminalizes, lack, youth. So without further ado, Kristen, thank you so much for joining us today.

Kristin [00:00:34]:

Thank you for having me. Happy to be here.

Sheldon [00:00:37]:

Now pleasure is always mine. I'm excited to have this topic discuss. I don't think I have a lot of other legal equity laid out to. Money has or shelled up health tickets. And for over a decade, I've helped educators become better advocates for their students. But before we get into that, I'd love for you to a little bit An advocate is someone who recognizes that we don't live in a justified -- -- an attorney in Washington to be seen. -- comfortable in the status quo and are willing to speak up on behalf of us. No matter where you are in your journey towards ensuring all of your students are equipped with the resources they need to thrive am -- I'm here to help build your knowledge and confidence. -- juvenile justice and inequity at your school. So we take our law students into the local courthouse and We represent kids who've been accused. And I'll tell you before that, I was an attorney with the public defender service

Kristin [00:01:30]:

in Washington, DC. So I have been representing kids now for about 26 years in DC.

Sheldon [00:01:37]:

So you spent time as a public defender And I I would imagine you've you've come across all kind of different cases. And and the I guess the question I wanna start off with is when it comes to criminalization, specifically of our black adolescents, what does that look like to you?

Kristin [00:01:56]:

Yeah. I think the the best way to share that is or to answer that is to share a story. Right? And I'm a tell you the story about a girl named Sharice. I call her Charice for purposes of my book, but she was a seventeen year old girl who got arrested at school But here's the deal. She got into an argument with her boyfriend in the hallway. And during the course of the argument, she was convinced that her boyfriend was cheating on her. So she grabbed his cell phone and began to walk down the hall. As she's walking down the hall, She's scrolling through his text messages to see if he been, you know, texting with some other girl. A school resource officer sees this and decides to intervene. Guess what his intervention was. To arrest her. That's the deal. Right? That was all she did. That's all she did. Truly, Sheldon. That's all she did. And so here's the deal. She then gets arrested in the hallway in front of of friends in front of teachers. She gets held in detention overnight, brought to court, and prosecuted the next day for robbery Right? That is like, yes, you know, robbery, which looks like a serious violent crime on the FBI Index of crime. Right? But in reality so I've got this kid who looks like a serious felon on paper, but in reality, she's a teenager doing what I dare say many of your listeners have done. know, as a as a kid. Right? Getting emotional and reactive. And so this is what I'm talking about. The criminalization of normal adolescent behaviors. Mhmm. I'm talking anything from, you know, talking back to adults, what they call adolescent aggressive speech. You know, I imagine maybe you or your children have talked back. I'm talking about, right, getting into a fight at school. I'm talking about, you know, a prank, you know, at school. I'm talking also about experimenting with drugs, sex, alcohol. Things that, of course, we don't approve of as adults, but they are things that we did and that our children have done as teenagers. And the question becomes, how do we, as adults, respond to those? So when I talk about the criminalization of black youth The point that I'm making is the racial disparity. You're talking all about equity. The fact is we don't respond to, you know, white children in the same way, especially not white children, wealthy neighborhoods, private schools. We would never do that. And you know, those white children come out just fine. Right? And many of us who didn't have that level of of of intervention come out just fine. And so that's what we mean by the criminalization of normal adolescent behaviors. And we actually are doing ourselves a real disservice. Right? When we do so, we're creating trauma for our young people. We are reducing education time. and there's just so many alternatives to that approach.

Sheldon [00:04:58]:

And I and and and and just to add to that, you know, I would imagine a lot of our suburban schools are predominantly white schools do not have a school resource officer may not be present in those schools versus how a lot of our schools are when in predominantly black and brown students. I mean, has that been part of your experience?

Kristin [00:05:18]:

Absolutely. That that that So let me put it this way. Even when so first, the point to say is that officers, school resource officers are disproportionately present -- Mhmm. -- in schools with predominantly black and brown student populations. Even also when there are school resource officers in White Schools, they the response. They you you you you usually are less of them. and that they intervene in different ways. Right? They might not be physically in the building. They might be next door or their philosophy of engaging with young people is quite different. But I will tell you, you know, sort of sneak preview to the end game in terms of solutions. I think all of what we are seeking to accomplish with school resource officers can be done without a law enforcement present. Right? You know? If it's about public safety, then we there are public health strategies for ensuring

Sheldon [00:06:17]:

that young people are safe at school short of police officers and surveillance equipment. Yeah. And and here's the thing. And and I I I I I think, Chris, you could agree. We're not here bashing police officers law enforcement things like that. I I my dad is law enforcement, and so that's not what I'm advocating for. But I when it comes to funding, When it comes to resources and even staffing, I would rather see that money go to a social worker or counselor who has mental health support and those kinda those type of resources I would like to see happen as opposed to introducing an SRO to the school because, again, school to prison pipeline and all these other challenges, disproportionality, all these different things -- That's right. -- that are out there. So, again, it's not that we're bashing law enforcement. but we do have some opportunities, I think, to make some changes. So I'm curious. What happened? What was that? Like, your defense? What what in I mean, you said she got process, but, I mean -- Absolutely. -- anything else after that? Yeah. So, I mean, she actually ended up staying in the system, you know, under court supervision,

Kristin [00:07:17]:

pending trial as it were for for 2 months. And 2, quite frankly, our strategy, our defense strategy was to shame all the people, you know, and for lack of better word, Right? But, like, really call attention to sort of the absurdity of that approach, right, as an intervention. And I should note that this was a young girl who also had learning disabilities. Right? And so when she felt, you know, that things were out of control or unfair, as is true for an average teenager. Right? She, you know, over you know, she reacted. I wouldn't even say she overreacted. She acted she reacted quite consistent with an adolescent. Right? And so we ultimately pushed back and got the case dismissed. Right? But, you know, so many kids don't, you know, have that level of Zealous advocacy when they get referred to court. They often plead out plead out quickly. And let me be really clear. The harm is already done. The second you get arrested in the hallway in front of your your classmates and in front of your teacher because you become stigmatized. Teachers then become to expect you to be that child. who is a troublemaker who's got, you know, criminal engagement and criminal involvement. And people perceive you to be so much more you know, dangerous than you could possibly be to the felony robbery as opposed to just a child who got into an argument with her boyfriend.

Sheldon [00:08:42]:

And my dad one of the things that my dad always tells me, even if your case got dismissed, the charge always is there. And so whatever she was charged sold the robbery. Right? So, obviously, there was an actual robbery, but that charge is still gonna be there. So even if whoever's watching it or going through the file, whatever it is, they can see that that, yeah, it was dismissed or maybe it was reduced down to a misdemeanor or whatever it is. However, the initial charge is there, and that can negatively impact our our our kids. And so

Speaker C [00:09:14]:

Author of the best selling book, Leading Equity. Coming an advocate for all students, Doctor Shellmonella Aiken is a highly sought after speaker and trainer. I would know because that's my dad. For booking, check out leadingequitycenter.com/consulting or use the link in the show notes.

Sheldon [00:09:34]:

Okay. Well, let's do this. So that's that I mean, that's just one example I'm assuming of more examples that you might have. But I think it really does paint a picture as far as how folks are being treated when it comes to, quote unquote, discipline or I I guess I guess that will be my next question is, are you seeing that okay. So someone gets a charge? maybe on our black youth are being charged with something. And are the penalties often harsher than maybe their white counterparts?

Kristin [00:10:03]:

So the the evidence is clear from every single stage of the system, from school discipline within the school to school based arrests, to detention, pretrial detention, to finding of guilt and innocence all the way to the sentencing phase. transfer to adult court. Every single stage, not only is there racial disparity, but that racial disparity gets broader and broader the deeper you get into the system. So if you wanna look at the front end, think about, like, Charice, you know, as a black girl, the evidence shows that black girls are 3.6 times more likely to be arrested at school than a white girl. Right? Just the the sort of the the idea, the mere concept of arresting a white girl at school, is is a, you know, isn't a very common phenomena. at all. So, yes, from from school discipline all the way to arrest, all the way through the system, you see those those racial disparities in, you know, more severe penalties. You're, you know, incarcerating a child removing from them from their home and and place the same in there, you know, in a secure diff detention facility is understanding the penultimate, right, for school behavior that is really, I just can't emphasize this enough, a typical adolescent argument between a boy and a girl. Now for all these years that you've you've done, you know, represent as a public defender,

Sheldon [00:11:33]:

how many like, what would you find the most agreed just when it comes to who you've had represented during those times.

Kristin [00:11:41]:

Let me be clear. Been representing kids as we already established for 26 years in the nation's capital. And in that entire 26 years, I have only represented 4 white children. And I feel like every one of your listeners should gasp at that data point. And for those who aren't, you know, familiar with Washington DC, you might be thinking that there are no white kids in the city limits or that white kids do not commit crime. And neither one of those would be true at all. But yet, I I just you do not see white children in in our local courthouse. And I think that's really important thinking about, you know, Washington c DC has plenty, you know, of private schools where some of our president's children have attended. the the most elite children have attended, and we know that adolescents are impulsive, risk takers. Right? Sensation seekers. basically boundary testers. Right? Yeah. And we know that there is what we call a crime bump, meaning a delinquency pump, meaning that children in these teen years engage in behaviors that technically meet the elements of a crime. But yet, you never see white kids in our courthouse. And, you know, we all talk. We know, you know, parents and teachers at schools, white private schools, and we know they're engaged in the exact same behaviors. that our black kids are engaged in. Yet you never. You just almost I mean, I'm I'm, like I'm not even speaking hyperbole. 4 white clients in 26 years. And if you ask any of my colleagues, not just on the defense bar, but the judges, the prosecutors, the probation officers, They can't name 5 white kids that they've seen come through our courthouse. So that's appalling to me. It's absolutely appalling.

Sheldon [00:13:24]:

So I could hear some of my listeners thinking, well, does that mean that a lot of our white counterparts can't afford an attorney to fight those crimes? Is is is that maybe what -- The black kid you mean that the black kids can't afford -- For example, like, a public defender. Right? Means that, you know, an attorney is appointed to this this youth. Right. Could I assume that maybe that it's not, you know, you know, if it's a white student, they could afford or families can afford attorneys or, like, is there a difference there? Or No. So when I say they aren't in court. I mean, they're not in court. So that's public defender just not even okay. Right. Not even being charged.

Kristin [00:14:06]:

That's right. They're not being charged. So, like, the so and it's a number of things. And I know you cover school issues. It's it's that schools don't call the police to handle that. Right? Schools call in a parent conference to negotiate. Right? Or schools have in house alternative strategies, whether that be, you know, mental health services that you talked about, counseling, peer intervention, mediation, all of those things that we value in in school systems to to to to address that. Right? So we wouldn't. We just wouldn't. see them ever even refer to court from school, but also from their communities, from their neighborhoods. Right? And that's about surveillance Right? And you talked about the difference in numbers of school resource officers. And then when school resource officers are there, it's about the strategy philosophy and their approach.

Sheldon [00:14:55]:

Okay. So I I was I was thinking, oh, well, maybe they just you know, they could afford an attorney, but you you say they ain't they ain't getting that far. So okay. Okay. Well okay. Let's let's hone in a little bit more because, you know, I've had a few episodes that have related to supporting our black boys. I I I feel like personally, I I don't do enough with supporting our black girls. as well and having those kind of conversations. So, you know, just building off of your experiences, are there other things that you've seen as far as how our girls are being treated in the system. Maybe you could even share what what is some of the younger like, what's the youngest youth that you've represented in the past? I'm just I'm just curious out, you know, what kind of experiences you have with working with our our black youth our our our black girls.

Kristin [00:15:44]:

in the system. And I'm so glad you you raised this. I mean, I think the question about black girls is critically important and and frequently gets lost. And in fact, you know, when I talk about, you know, my book, The Age of Medicines How America criminalizes Black Youth, people automatically act that question, who is this are are you this is what they ask, Sheldon, they ask, are you gonna have a chapter on black girls? I'm like, no. No. No. I'm not gonna have chapter on black girls, they are interwoven from page 1 all the way to the end of the book precisely because of what you said. They get so lost. And so I wanted to be clear with everyone that every single question that we ask or every single issue that we need to be grappling with as it relates to the criminalization, of black children must be dealt with with black girls. And on top of that, there are some unique issues that impact girls black girls in particular. So, you know, I think about, you know, from the outset, the ways in which black girls have not been spared from the historical stereotypes that criminalize them, right, that treat them as if they are Jezebel's. Right? sexually promiscuous, unladylike, inappropriate. So angry black girls, so aggressive. Right? There are research studies showing that like, you think about school discipline on the front end, that adults are more likely to misperceive the facial expressions of black children as more dangerous or violent and threatening than a white child. So I always when I go out and I do trainings on these topics, I ask, you know, I'll show pictures. Is this child, this black child sad or angry? And then I show a picture of a white kid. Is this child sad or angry and force us to think about what does that look like? And so a little black girl who's sad, who's hurt, who's experiencing trauma looks like she's angry and aggressive. Right? This is what I'm talking about, then they're more likely to get subject to discipline. And if they talk back, stand up for themselves. assert their dignity. Right? Then they're, you know, accused of being threatening and maybe even arrested for that behavior. So you see that. There's also research, right, coming out of Georgetown Law Center's Center on poverty and inequality. in which they studied the ways in which adults tend to perceive black girls as older, right, than they actually are. So older, more mature, more knowledgeable about adult topics, less innocent, less in need of protection, all of that helps us understand why it is that a black girl is more likely to be disciplined with in school and arrested and and referred out of school. So all of that is is really, really important when we think about black girls. Raise your hand if you'll buy that book. Bye. Docshelle Hill Akins. What'd you hear about?

Sheldon [00:18:38]:

Looking for an engaging speaker for your next event, Whether it's webinars, workshops, keynotes, or 101 coaching, I'm here to help you. Our students live in 2 different worlds often. norms in their community, and then the norms within their school. And they often aren't the same. For more information, go to leadingequitycenter.com/consulting or click on the link in the show notes and let's work together. Absolutely. And, you know, as a father, I was raising a black girl. Just talking to her earlier today. I said, baby girl. It's gonna be 13 in a couple months. And and just Talking to you is making me a little nervous. I'm not even gonna lie. Got me thinking. So I okay. Can I just can I just ask a side question? And this is a -- Yeah. -- this is a question I'm asking for myself. As a dad or as a parent or guardian who has black girls that our school age, is there any type of tip or strategy, even a conversation that you would suggest them having?

Kristin [00:19:43]:

Yes. Such an important question also. And I remind folks, right, that it is really very difficult to be a period today. It's almost like we're walking like a tight rope. On the one hand, we wanna be you know, we have to. We don't even say want to. We don't have a choice. but to prepare our black girls and black boys for those inevitable moments of racial discrimination. also preparing them for police encounters. Right? So you give your child sort of the talk, whether it's the talk about police, put your hands up, do whatever they say, don't be disrespectful. Just get home safe. Right? But at the other hand, like, you don't wanna over prepare them so that they live in a constant state of trauma and hypervigilance always worried about whether or not they're being targeted or whether or not they're unsafe in the presence of police officers. Right? So it's a really delicate balance. You also don't want them living life feeling like that they have no allies. Right? Allies and teachers and and other adults that might be helping them. So what I you know, what some of the research shows is that one of the best ways to prepare your children, yes. You don't have a choice, but to tell them about these moments that that they may encounter. But you offset that with black identity development, with black pride, with you know, look. You know, we as a people have overcome a lot. You know? That story of Rosa Parks goes a long way when you're also telling them them about discrimination. Right? And so I think that's one thing is just this race pride, race identity as a good thing. that just because somebody else discriminates against you doesn't mean you are what they say you are. So that's sort of part 1. I think part 2 is creating safe spaces for your children to come and talk to you about what they're seeing, what they're experiencing. And I talk to teachers and other educators about this all the time, Do we have opportunities for young people to come together and say, this is what I dealt with on the street or after George Floyd was killed. This is what I saw. This is how I felt it. This is how I experienced it. And is there something similar happening in your community? And how does it make you feel? or just a open prompt question. Right? Like, you know, reading Charise's story in my book. Just literally, you know, a page out of the book. Let's all read this. How does that make you feel? Can you relate to that? So that's another strategy we've been using with young people to give space, you know, to talk about it. And then the third thing is empowering them to, like, have tools, right, to to challenge these these injustices, but in ways that are safe. So I might not want my girl, you know, my my teenage girl to, like, you know, curse out the police officer. Not even may not. I would not. Right? You know? But at the same time, when they come home, what are we gonna do? Are we gonna sit down and write a letter together as a family? Are we gonna you know, make some phone calls? Are we gonna, you know, pull together a group of kids who can, you know, if it was something that happened with the school resource officer? can we, you know, have a a meeting and draw up a petition? But youth activism is sort of that third piece. What do you how do you empower your children to, you know, fight these injustices in ways that could keep them safe.

Sheldon [00:23:03]:

So we don't want them to live in fear. But we do wanna educate them and not only educate them on what to do when. I always say when it happens, not it. That's right. And -- Yeah. -- final thing that I heard was the empowerment. So not only that, but we we want them to feel empowered.

Kristin [00:23:21]:

That's right. Empowered both to share and empowered to act in the right places. That's right. Gotcha. Okay. This is

Sheldon [00:23:30]:

again, as a side note, that was but I'm sure there's some black out there that got some black kids and and and and daughters and, you know so I would like, shoot. I live in Idaho. So I was like, I was like, yeah. Help me out. Help my brother out. Okay. Alright. So okay. I got I got let's let's transition over to let's shift gears to educators. Right? Yes. Yes. When it when we're looking if I'm an educator and I'm looking at students in it, let's just say my demographics reflects black and brown kids or specifically our black girls or our black boys. What type of strategies could you provide to our educators who are in these situations?

Kristin [00:24:08]:

Yeah. So I think what we are looking for, advocating for and you've you've already begun to touch on it, replacing our traditional law enforcement strategies with a public health response. Right? Our public health strategy for school safety and community safety. Right? so when I'm thinking about a public health framework, I'm thinking about a framework that is that is trauma informed. Right? meaning that is attentive to all of the trauma that are all children, really, of all races in class today are experiencing. in light of the pandemic, in light of racial injustice, and and in light of political turmoil, in light of violence and death that they are seeing, So it's gotta be trauma informed. It also needs to be attentive to developing meaningful relationships between adults and young people. Right? It needs to be racially equitable because how many of you know that our black and brown children are watching those those inequities. And that, you know, teenagers are fairness fanatics, and they begin to question. Why is it? Why is it that I should follow the rules? when you want when you treat me differently and you don't treat, you know, the kids at this other school that way. So it's gotta be racially equitable. and it needs to be restorative, attempting to bridge relationships that have been broken. On a much more practical level, it means all the things you've been talking about. a continuum of mental health services, right, available to young people in school and out of school in ways that are culturally attentive and that are not stigmatizing. It means social emotional learning in the classroom. It means smaller class sizes. Right? it means actual restorative justice programming. Mhmm. It means vocational education things that give young people pride in in in themselves and what they're doing paired with that social emotional How do you do conflict resolution and the like? And then in those schools where there is real evidence of violence then violence interrupters and credible messengers that can go in that look like the young people who are impacted and can help negotiate a truce and and and help reduce that crime. So that's what we, you know, what we need. I think we default Sheldon to these, you know, traditional law enforcement methods like surveillance equipment and police in schools. And we and that's you know why we do it? Because that's all people give us. That's all, you know, our state and local governments are willing to fund, so you take what you get. And we've gotta really understand what the cost of that approach are, the trauma. There really is a growing body of research documenting the extraordinary psychological trauma that black and brown youth experience in in contact with the police. They become, you know, anxious and afraid and depressed. And what kind of you know, that's not the environment we want to cultivate, the climate we want to cultivate. in our school system. So I I there's just a lot of research in that regard, and people sort of missed that when they're figuring out how to how to keep our school safe. And, actually, you increase trauma, you increase crime. So we're doing ourselves a disservice, which is something I said right at the beginning.

Sheldon [00:27:23]:

I love that. You what did you say? Increased if you increase trauma, you increase crime. Crime. Right?

Kristin [00:27:28]:

Yep.

Sheldon [00:27:29]:

Chris, you got bars. You got bars today. Okay? I I hear

Kristin [00:27:33]:

I think that's right. That's right.

Sheldon [00:27:35]:

Okay. Okay. I had thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. I've learned a lot. And and, again, as a father, this has been very helpful. I I selfishly ask some questions, but, you know, that's it's my show. So I could do that. So I I I appreciate the the work that you're doing and for producing, you know, the research, the experience, your representation, everything that comes along with this. I consider you as providing a voice and leading equity I'd love for you to share one final word of advice to our listeners.

Kristin [00:28:03]:

Yeah. I say, you know, really, we have to treat all children like children. Right? Not just, you know, the wealthy and the privileged among us, the white children among us, but all children deserve and need that opportunity to be children. And so our job as adults has to be to be that one irrationally caring adult to the children that we encounter. Right? And everyone every every child deserves to have an entire team of irrationally caring adults on their side, people who understand that they make mistakes. but we're not gonna embarrass them, criminalize them, you know, put them under the jail for being kids, but we're gonna redirect them, support them, and guide them. Mhmm. Mhmm. Amen. Alright. Well -- Uh-huh.

Sheldon [00:28:55]:

Again, I thoroughly enjoyed this. If we have some folks that want to connect with you, what's the best way to reach you online?

Kristin [00:29:01]:

So one way is rachofinnocence.com. And another way is to, you know, search for us at the Georgetown Juvenile Justice Clinic and especially our racial justice work. You can find us pretty easy.

Sheldon [00:29:17]:

Alright. There it is. So once again, I'm speaking to Professor Kristen Henning Author of the rage of innocence, how America, criminalizes, lack youth. Of course, I'm gonna leave the links in the show notes, folks. so that you can grab yourself a copy. But, Chris, it has truly been a pleasure. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you. Thank you for all you do elevating these issues.

Key Words

criminalization, black girls, youth criminalization, stereotypes, sexually promiscuous, unladylike, aggressive, angry, discipline, arrested, referred out of school, misperceive, facial expressions, dangerous, violent, mature, knowledgeable, innocent, protection, police officers, surveillance equipment, law enforcement, funding, resources, social workers, counselors, mental health support, school-to-prison pipeline, disproportionality, court supervision, advocate, unjust realities, juvenile justice, accused, robbery, adolescent behaviors, racial disparity, trauma, education time, webinar, workshop, keynote, coaching speaker, conflicting social norms, consulting, parenting tips, overprepare, hypervigilance, black identity development, safe spaces, tools, injustices, racial disparities, justice system, sentencing, incarceration, secure facilities, public health response, trauma-informed, restorative, mental health services, social emotional learning, conflict resolution, violence interrupters, negative school environment, Washington D.C., lack of representation, private schools, learning disabilities, trial, defense strategy, zealous advocacy, stigmatizes.

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