Sheldon [00:00:00]:

Welcome advocates to another episode of the Eakins Equity podcast. A podcast that focuses on supporting educators with the tools and resources necessary to ensure equity at their schools. Today's special guest is AJ Craebel, author of Great On Their Behalf, why school boards fail how yours can become effective. So without further ado, AJ, thank you so much for joining us today. Hey, Sheldon. Thanks for having me. Pleasure is mine. and I love to talk to a fellow Houstonian Ace Town, cluster. Screws to Texas. So I appreciate all of that. Thank you so much for joining us. Now I'm excited for today's topic, but before we get into it, please share a little bit about yourself and what you currently do. spent a lot of my time working with school systems

AJ Crabill [00:00:47]:

both at the district level supporting the board and superintendent with strategic focus and helping school systems nationwide make the transition from a adult input focus to a student outcomes focus And then I also spend a lot of time supporting individual schools with deploying student led, restorative practices where we're making the transition from when little AJ and Sheldon beef on something instead of that going to the assistant principle, can we train a group of student leaders and it goes to them and they try to invest the time to figure out a restorative approach to addressing the underlying situation in hopes of minimizing the likelihood of recur.

Sheldon [00:01:29]:

Alright. Alright. Well, sound like you're the the person to talk to in regards to because I don't have a lot of episodes in regards to conversations around school boards and the role of school boards. And I found your your book interesting because you you talk about the transformation of our school boards, and I I wanna start there. Could you share a little bit about why we should be even having that conversation of transforming our school boards?

AJ Crabill [00:01:53]:

No. I I get this question sometimes. people like, do school boards -- Yeah. -- even matter. I mean, did you said it more more artistically than that, but that's essentially where a lot of people come from. It's like, you know, who cares? the challenges that whatever the school board is focused on, the superintendent in their administration get focused on, whatever they get focused on, then the principles are likely focused on whatever. They get focused on, and the teachers are likely focused on. And so there there is this transitioning of attention that really has its genesis in the boardroom but winds up having direct impacts on the classroom. You know? In the book, one of the stories I tell is a board that I was coaching, I don't even know how they got on this topic. But at the end of a 45 minute, heated dialogue slash debate. The board member pounds his fist on the day as and culminates with this statement that is forever burned in my brain. I am philosophically opposed to non yellow school buses.

Sheldon [00:02:57]:

Is there a different color?

AJ Crabill [00:02:59]:

Okay. I I didn't even know. I mean, this was all news to me. But for 45 minutes, where they were at. They were living in this. Everybody had opinions. Everybody was an expert. Mhmm. And so that's how 45 minutes of the board meeting What do you think the senior administration of the school district spent a considerable amount of the next 2 weeks' work at all? Looking for a different colored bus? They're just trying to figure out what are the different colors of buses. You know, what are the costs of the different colors? Is this colored paint, different than that colored paint, doing some research, figuring out are there safety differentials from different colors and and just all kinds of the business about it. Now the teachers union, they weren't gonna be left behind. They they ran a survey to see what different teachers felt about this. The local newspaper wasn't being left behind. They had opinion pieces and They were talking about the whole issue and all of this that the third. 2 weeks later, the next board meeting, the what does the administration do? they brought up brought up the the the options, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. They brought brought out all the research. All the research they they do their full presentations, but another hour, you know, presenting on, you know, the different impacts. And at the end of all that, after all of that energy at one board meeting, all that energy Eakins between board meetings, all that energy at the subsequent board meeting. Guess what the board did.

Sheldon [00:04:19]:

They kept the buses They can't -- -- exactly where it work. Nothing changed. Nothing changed.

AJ Crabill [00:04:24]:

And then the challenge is for that 2 week period, Whatever our students needed during that time was not the number one topic. Mhmm. Though the number one topic was the color of school buses and everything attendant to that. And because that was the number one focus of the superintendent of the administration that became a focus of, yeah, teachers? Like, why why are teachers answering polls of how school bus colors? And and so it cascaded, and it became the shift of adult focus away from student outcomes, away from what is it we want our students to know and be able to do and toward adult inputs. What are the resources that We apply to the system, the books, the buses, you know, all of those type of things. That's the challenge is that when school boards are intensely focused on adult inputs, then the rest of the school system gets focused in on that often to the detriment of students. But when school boards get intensely focused on improving student outcomes, that increases the likelihood that the rest of the school system begins to echo that focus as well. And so when you see school systems that are are being effective, absent a student outcomes focused school board, that just means the school district is being effective in spite of But that also means that there's most likely some amount of possibility for students that's being left on the table that that there's more that We're getting this much in spite of the board's focus. How much more outcomes for students could we be getting if there was actually this alignment of focus? And so this is this is what's at stake. This is why these things matter is because where the board focuses, what happened to the boardroom echoes in the classroom. I'm curious. And We can move on after this, but

Sheldon [00:06:07]:

what was the philosophical basis? Did he just didn't like the color? Was there any reason behind the the I'm I'm just curious. I'm like, maybe there was a relation to the students. You know, maybe it was hard for them to see you tomorrow. I don't know. But I I'm just curious what

AJ Crabill [00:06:23]:

What's the foe like, what was the the reason? So there are a variety of reasons. Okay. One of the reasons is because different people drove different color of buses -- Okay. -- that the folks with this set of jobs drove school buses, and the folks with set of jobs drove other buses that would be partnered with the district instead. In inside of that context, what we're really talking about is people's jobs.

Sheldon [00:06:51]:

Yeah. Absolutely. Okay. So, yeah, absolutely nothing to do with the kids themselves because, I mean, kids ride the bus, but there's no reason okay. That's why I was curious about that. So let me ask you this question then when it so that was 2 weeks of time wasted, right, with an f and energy and who knows how much money or whatever was spent in and why are teachers doing polls and all. They don't ride the bus. There's so many reasons What would would you put that on the leadership in regards to you know, was it is is there someone's fault, or is there somebody that I would say is

AJ Crabill [00:07:24]:

should should have been like, yo, what are we doing? Like, what what were you what are your what are your thoughts there? The school board is responsible for what it focuses its time on. Yeah. This is a leadership fail. This is not a student fail. Teachers didn't do something wrong here. This isn't a principle Eakins a senior leadership fail. This is a governance fail. The board behaved in a way that pulled attention away from what's possible for children. Yeah. So how do we what are some thoughts

Sheldon [00:07:51]:

on transforming that school district? because it sounds like this probably is not an an issue that has has not happened before similar situations. So what what are some of your key strategies when it comes to Okay. Let's make sure that we're focusing on the kids.

AJ Crabill [00:08:07]:

In the book, I described 3 key areas that really contribute to the failure of school boards that there's a failures that are based in knowledge that there's things that the board needs to know that it just doesn't know. The board members need to be educated on that they just haven't been educated on. There's failures of skill. There are things that the board members need to be able be able to do. It's not not always enough to know stuff. Sometimes you guys have to be able to do stuff. In addition to failures of knowledge and skill, there's a fundamental failures of mindset, no failures of how I see the world, how I view things, how how I focus my time, and my energy. The the the way I see things determines often how I behave. If if my view of the world is that adult inputs are the primary job of the board, then that leads to one set of behaviors. If my view of the world is student outcomes, is the primary work of the board, and that leads to a different set of behaviors. And so the the 3rd and what I described is the most influential failure mode for school boards is a failure of mindset that rather than having a student outcomes focused mindset that often boards unintentionally, but very much in practice are living out in adult inputs focused mindset. A mindset that's focused on what is workable and pleasing to adults not what is necessary and outcomes improving for students. As a so I'm a parent. I I got kids in in in their school age and things like that. So I think about from a parent perspective,

Sheldon [00:09:40]:

we think about who the the school board makes the makeup of the school board members. And I know as community We have a role when it comes to voting in, school board members, and things like that. Do you have any suggestions when it comes to the membership side of things. What what kind I I know you said the mindset. It is important as well, but what are some things as parent, I should be looking for it from, you know, getting ready to vote and those Eakins of things to make sure that the focus is on the students or at least I can have an idea as far as what the potential of these these members could be like. The first thing I would coach you on is that

AJ Crabill [00:10:18]:

if we're having this conversation in the middle of a school board election, we've already failed children. Okay. The the the war for what's great for children has already been lost. The really, you wanna have this type of conversation long in advance. Then you this is a conversation that you would ideally be having with folks before the filing for school board elections even opened. And so the the best case scenario is can we train everyone in the community who's interested in potentially serving on the board and the knowledge skills and mindset necessary to be effective school board members before filing even opens. And so that's the first thing. If you really wanna be visionary about this, create the conditions where there is training available such that anyone who is even thinking about in the future I might run for the school board, all your parent leaders, all your teacher leaders, community leaders that they be provided with. I mean, this is voluntary. But if people are really serious about serving kids, they're gonna step up. They'd be provided with the training around what it looks like to be student outcomes focused. before we even file. If if we can figure out a way to get to that reality that as a concerned parent, I'd argue that's probably one of the more powerful things that you can cause to happen in your community that there is enough folks in community who are trained on what effective school board leadership looks like before they ever run. So right now what normally happens is people feel like I really care about children. People ask me to run for the school board. I'll run for the school board because I I really want great things for children. And then I get on the school board. Now I will figure out what is the job that I just ran for. Mhmm. I'm suggesting to you that is just a failed model. That the better scenarios, the more effective scenarios, how do we get people trained in advance? And I speak this from personal experience. Yeah. I tell another story in the book about how before I was in education, I was a computer programmer. And so I ran for the school board because I was deeply involved in community. I was a volunteer with children, volunteer with my neighborhood association. I cared a lot. and I just wanted to be able to support children in in this particular way as well. I didn't really know anything about governing a school system. And I And to be blunt at this point, looking back, I really didn't do my homework. I thought I did, but but I clearly did not. And so when I got on the school board, because my previous background was in computer programming, I immediately started noticing all the computer things that were wrong. Well, this technology and accounting department is antiquated and these computers in the back of these classrooms are antiquated. And if we don't get this right, then this ain't gonna be right for kids, and our children will suffer from that. So we gotta get this technology right. Now if you had asked that young brother at that time, are you focused on student outcomes? What would he have said? Well, see, technically,

Sheldon [00:13:06]:

you could argue that student outcomes are part of that antiquated technology.

AJ Crabill [00:13:12]:

Right? So if you'd asked him, are you what are you focused on? What would he have said? Technology, for sure. No. That's not what he would've said. He would've said, I'm focused on what? I don't know. You tell me. You tell me. I would've I would've told you I would've focused on the students. Oh oh, I see what you're saying. Okay. Okay. Yes. But I was not focused on the students. What was I actually focused on? On the technology. I was focused on the adult inputs not the student outcomes. But if you would ask me what my focus was, I would have told you my focus was student outcomes. I would have been sufficiently to see it. I would have been trying to lie to you. I it wouldn't have been a hustle. This isn't politicians trying to play word games. I simply lacked the knowledge skills and mindset to understand that my focus was not in that moment about student outcomes. It was very much around technology, and and that's not even the the worst part. Why was my focused technology? of all the things my focus could possibly be on, why was my focus on technology?

Sheldon [00:14:12]:

You got me lost for a second. So I I guess I'm I'm I'm kinda confused then, AJ. because I I see what you're saying as far as, like, okay. So you come in with the stem background. Right? computer programming. And so when you came in, the first thing you saw was the technology was was antiquated, and it needs to be upgraded. That's why that's what I focused on. but it still impacts Eakins on what they have as far as what they're utilizing.

AJ Crabill [00:14:39]:

And this is a mistake. Okay. There there isn't anything out here that doesn't -- Help me understand. Okay. I wanna follow you. I'm I'm I'm I got law enforcement. What what do we have what do we have tacos and cheeseburgers? probably impacts the kid. Whether the whether the walls are gray or green, probably impacts the kids. Whether we use this book or that book, there isn't any choice we're making that doesn't have some impact. Okay. So now the real question is, of the hundreds of things that are gonna make an impact, which of those things should we focus on? I would say, like, academic and social emotional support. So you try to pick things that have the strongest impact because everything has an impact. Sure. You're whether we tell kids that they can wear hoodies or or they can wear, you know, black hats or not. Every everything's gonna have some type of impact. There's so that's not a question. Mhmm. Now what's a question is, you know, in the academic parlance, what's the effect size? You know? Or what's the what's the correlation?

Sheldon [00:15:31]:

Okay. I I what is your definition of student outcomes? because I had -- There we go. -- probably that's probably -- Now we're getting bored. Now we're getting pissed. -- ask you that question because I'm I'm trying to follow you. So okay. Could but maybe we're we're student outcomes in our minds are different. So define that for us so that's why I know exactly in regards. is absolutely it. I actually mentioned this exact thing

AJ Crabill [00:15:53]:

in the first chapter of the book that we are at a point of confusion about what student outcomes actually are. Okay. And so the definition that I offer you, student outcomes or any measures at the end of the cycle that describe what students known are able to do. So when we get to the end of the cycle, whatever measures we have and what students know or are able to do, that's what we mean by student outcomes. And here's why that's critical. Mhmm. It's because if we get the technology right, when little AJ walks across that stage, does does he get to take the technology with them? No. No. If we get the books right, when little AJ walks across that stage, does he get to take the books with him? No. We don't say, hey. Little grab your favorite teacher, toss them over your shoulder. Congratulations. You get to take them with you when you graduate. Do is that how it works? No. If we get all of these things right, But what he knows and is able to do isn't significant enough to help propel him into a choice filled life. We have failed have failed. The only thing the only thing children will walk away from the school system with when they leave, what do they know What are they able to do? What is their knowledge? What is their skills? And so we say student outcomes. We say at the end of the cycle, what is it that children know and are able to do? those are student outcomes. And if we if we get all of the adult inputs right, we get the books right, we get the technology right, we get everything right. But little AJ still can't read, can't problem solve, can't collaborate, can't do math, can't problem solve, can't engage in critical thinking. if AJ lacks the knowledge and skills, then we have failed even if we got all of the adult inputs right. Yeah. So I can focus on the technology all I want. but that isn't getting the real job done. It may have an impact because everything will have an impact on the technology will have an impact of that and -- Yeah. -- you know, whether or not we have lasagna on Fridays will have an impact or everything will have an impact. because now at that point, we gotta ask ourselves, which things have the strongest impact on what the lej will know and be able to do when he walked across that stage. because if we let Little Sheldon roll out of here without basic knowledge and skills, about how to be successful in the world, little Sheldon doesn't work end up working at university a few years later.

Sheldon [00:18:06]:

author of the best selling book, Leading Equity. Coming an advocate for all students, Doctor Shell Nell Aiken is a highly sought after speaker and trainer. I would know because that's my dad. For booking, check out leadingequitycenter.com/consulting or use the link in the show notes. Okay. Okay. Okay. Alright. Now we're on the same page. because alright. Thank you for explaining that because I was like, yeah. What technology is, oh, we need to get new stuff. Exactly. -- that. And and that's the exact same

AJ Crabill [00:18:39]:

failure mode that I walked under the school board with. Mhmm. Mhmm. And and and the challenges, it's it's reasonable. Like, it it sounds reasonable. Like, yeah, technology make it makes sense we gotta get that right. And I'm not saying we should oh, I'm not saying we should have bad technology. Like, that's obviously not the message. Right. But the message is if I focus on my energy and get to the technology right, what are we more likely to get right?

Sheldon [00:18:58]:

The technology. Right. If I focus all my energy on getting the color of the school bus right, what are we likely to get right? School bus cut. But it does not necessarily mean that your kids are gonna do better in a in a know -- Damn. -- have those skills that they need to have in the whole show. Got you. But that's the whole conversation right there. And so instead,

AJ Crabill [00:19:17]:

what I advocate for and what I coach school boards across the nation in is how do we how do we start with the focus of student outcomes? How do we start with the thing that is more important than anything else, more important than anything else. In fact, what I say in the book, the only reason school systems exist is to improve student outcomes. The only reason they exist. School systems don't exist to have a balanced budget. That's not why schools do I believe school systems have a balanced budget? Absolutely. If the only thing we have is a balanced budget, but none of our children are ready to live choice filled lives and to be successful at their next level of learning, we failed. school systems don't exist to have happy parents, to have employed staff and teachers, school systems don't exist to provide school lunches. Like, those are things that we do because we believe in doing those things that that will help set us up for success. But if we do those things, and children aren't don't know and are able to do the things they need to do to be successful in life, we have failed. That's the core message, and that is and that is that first mindset shift away from a focus on adult inputs, the one I had around technology, But if an engineer gets elected to the school board and he hasn't been through this shift, was he probably gonna be focused on? Structures depending on what Eakins of engineer, but probably whatever they're -- And if But if a doctor gets elected to the school board, then she hasn't gone through this, well, she probably gonna be focused on it. Exactly. Okay. Okay. Okay. Alright. So then So to me, it doesn't sound like it matters

Sheldon [00:20:45]:

necessarily as far as your background. So whether oh, we need retired teachers or former teachers to be a part of school board. Sounds like position occupation, those Eakins of thing that background is. Doesn't really matter. It just needs to make sure that the training the pretraining needs to happen. before they either run for those positions, or they need to have that sort of understanding. Is that is that what I'm hearing? Yeah. What people miss,

AJ Crabill [00:21:09]:

is they misunderstand the job of the school board. Okay. And the job of the school board is to represent the vision and values of the community. The job of school board is not to be educational experts. It's not the job of the school board. You hire for that. We we have a position for that. If if that's what you wanna be, apply to be the superintendent. But the job of the school board is not to be the educational expert. The job of the school board is not to be financial experts. We have a job for that. If if you wanna be that, then that's fine. for that. You know, we we've got a chief financial officer somewhere, you know, or business manager somewhere. But that's not the job of the board. The board has one job and one job only. It's within the context of improving student outcomes, the job of the board is to represent the vision and the values of the community. And so the only expertise you need to be an effective board member is that you were dialed in to the community's vision and you're dialed in the community's values in such a way that you can then help create a framework that holds this school system accountable for for accomplishing those things. And so all of the different jobs and backgrounds that people have, that's still valuable. It's just not the reason that you're being elected. People go to the ballot box. It's like, well, we should vote for Sheldon because he knows something about higher ed. The only reason I'm gonna vote for you is because they believe that you will represent their vision and their values in the role. And so even if you know everything there is to know about higher ed, If they feel like your vision and values are in collision with theirs, they're never gonna vote for you. And so that's the insight is if they're not voting for you because of what your job and professional expertise is, they're voting for you because they think that that might be useful because you are already aligned with their vision and value. That is why you're being elected. That is the sole competency that board members have to have to be effective. Now inside of that, there we do have pretty compelling research that for a governing body to be effective, it really needs to represent the diverse perspectives and experiences of the people in this community. And so if half of the people in the community, you know, have grown up in poverty. That is a different perspective than the other half of the community that didn't grow up in poverty. And you'd want to have people from both both of those sets of experiences serving on the school board because then you'll have both sets of perspectives, life's experience is represented, and that will help you be more effective at representing vision and values of the community when you have people who lived the vision and values of community. And so this is where this idea of a diverse governing body is actually well supported in the research literature on the topic of effective governing bodies because it does help to have that representationality. But with that as a caveat aside, the main thing they have to be able to do is represent divisional values of the community. And once you find people who are willing and able to do that, then the next task for you is let's make sure they understand what it looks like to be effective school board members, which is the very first lesson out the box, what is a student outcome?

Sheldon [00:24:06]:

There you go. There you go. Okay. So for my folks who are involved in school boards or teach, you know, some sort of relation to the school board area, Do you suggest any sorts of audits to be done just to Eakins check to see? Like, how do I know if student outcomes is the focus right now? Like, let's say, I How how do I know? You're asking great questions.

AJ Crabill [00:24:27]:

Alright, professor. You you you you're really speaking my love language right now. Here we go. So the challenge is Everybody thinks that what they do is focus on student outcome. I certainly did. I absolutely did. Right. And so we have to have a measure. There has to be a mechanism for calculating the percentage of focus. What my team and I have done over the last 6 years is we've started watching school board members all across the country, then including board board meetings in Idaho. And we've watched these board meetings and specifically coded the board meetings to try to identify how is the time being spent. Mhmm. And so we can give you this precise calculation of what or the total number of minutes in the board meeting. They could then percentage of minutes were spent on this versus this versus this versus this. Does this make sense? Mhmm. And so through this coding initiative and through our work over the last 6 years, What I've generally found is that most boards spend between 0 to 5% of their time each month actually in any way tangentially focused on student outcomes. And then for the average board across the country, it's usually less than a%. You said 0 to 5%?

Sheldon [00:25:32]:

Yeah. At best. And I I I -- I've been on I've been on school boards, and I've I've been and I know folks that are on school boards and, like, man, we were on a 3, 4 hour meeting. We didn't get to midnight and all these things. So you're telling me 0 to 5%

AJ Crabill [00:25:46]:

is about the averages you were seeing. Here's here's what you asked in the next school board. Or just go watch the next school board. just keep a pen and paper with you. Keep write down when do the meeting start, when do the meeting end, that'll give you the total number of minutes. So say the board met for exactly 100 minutes. Mhmm. So the board meets for a 100 minutes. Out on 40 minutes, they they put their mean together and then they adjourn. Now all you gotta do is calculate of those 100 minutes exactly How many of those were focused on which different things? I'd encourage you to look at how many of those were focused on voting in a lot of boards. That'll be the majority of How many of those were focused on the board? Kind of passively listening to updates about the transportation department or updates about you know, because we gotta know about how our yellow buses are doing. There are updates about food service department because we gotta know if taco Tuesday has been turned into taco Thursday, updates on all these different departments, maybe Eakins update on, you know, the curriculum department, kind of, you know, what new books are we ordering. All those conversations, all everything around voting and all these different reports, not a word of that is about student outcome then. because If we're gonna have a conversation about student outcomes, it has to be what are the goals that we've set around what students should know or be able to do at the end of the cycle? And then are we spending time during the board meeting, actually monitoring. Here's where we want to be where we want students to be at the end of the cycle. Here's where we are right now. or here here's where we were at the beginning of our strategic plan, and and where are we at right now? Are we moving closer to where we are trying to be? Are we kind of flat lighting? Are we actually declining away from where we want to be? When you hear folks having that conversation that specifically is revealing student performance data that describes what students known or able to do relative to the goals that we've set. So if we haven't set a goal about social studies, but we have a hour long conversation about social studies that's actually not student outcomes focused either. It has to be what are the goals that we've set for what students should know and be able to do And then how are we doing relative to those goals? And when you hear boards having that conversation, then they're having a student outcomes focused conversation. If you hear anything other than that, then it's not. 5% or less, and most boards, less than 1% are that conversation.

Sheldon [00:27:56]:

Okay. So I'm a throw this out to you then. what would you suggest should be the ratio of student outcome conversations versus adult conversations? 5050?

AJ Crabill [00:28:06]:

If we say that the main thing is the main thing, then we gotta make the main thing the main thing. Mhmm. If we say that school systems exist for one reason and one reason only that's improved student outcomes, We can't spend at least half of our time focused on the thing that is the main thing. And so the coaching that we offer is boards that are intensely focused on improving too. You you were asking all the right questions. We we're just breaking it all down. This is what I do. Bored wanted to say that we are intensely focused on approving student outcomes. then we can watch that board meeting, and we can measure it. And and if it's just one board meeting a month, we just look at 1. If it's 2 board meetings a month, we look at both of those. If If they also have 2 board meetings and a committee meeting, we'd look at all 3 of those. And we'd add up the total amount of minutes that the board spent in meetings for the month And then we say what percentage of those total minutes are actually focused on monitoring progress toward our goals for student outcomes? You could do that right now with your own local school board, and then you'll know what percentage. And then the challenge is how do we go from whatever that starting percentage is, say it's 1%. How do we go from that? How do we get that to 50%? And because in that moment, then the board is truly focused on improving student outcomes in a way that's really gonna be powerful for creating a cascading effects of a student outcomes focused throughout the entire organization. Imagine that same thing of you know, board members still pounding their fist on the deus, but around things that we have said that our students should know and be able to do this And I'm philosophically opposed to us taking any actions that aren't aligned with this. And right now, we're not here, so this needs to be our focus. We don't have time to talk about school buses right now. Super intend to handle that. Right now, I'm not gonna be sidetracked by that. I need to know what is going on with their students. which ones are on track, Eakins ones aren't, what we're doing about the ones that are, what we're doing for the ones who are not, and what you're gonna need from us as a board next to make that happen. That's the only conversation I wanna have because this is the thing that matters most. And in that context, when boards are spending 50% of their time living in that space,

Sheldon [00:30:06]:

that's when they are really lifting up what's possible for children in a meaningful You are killing it right now, AJ, first of all. Thank you so much for that. I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna throw some little throw a little bit of controversy at you. k? I'm gonna get you get you take. Okay? Because, you know, nowadays, when we're talking about school boards, we see a lot of conversations about critical race theory. book banning, you know, kids talking about sexual orientation conversations, all of these things where do you fit, or what are your stance, I guess, when it comes to school boards roles in these conversations?

AJ Crabill [00:30:40]:

So this is a great conversation. So in order to get the context for this, we gotta take one step back. Remember I told you the board has a singular job. It's to represent the vision and the values of the community. What I didn't clarify, these are 2 distinct things. The vision of the community describes what should students know and be able to do. So the board listens for the vision of the community and writes it down in the form of goals. It says, here's what we want students to know and be able to do at the end of the cycle. we're just gonna hammer on this for 50 percent of all of our time every single month. What I didn't mention is that the other side of it is the boards also have to represent the values of the community. So were the The goals represent the vision of community. What's the community wants students to know and be able to do. What I call in the book the guardrails represent the values of the What are the nonnegotiables that have to be honored? The way I often explain this to folks is I was leaving my office one day to go to the airport, and so I called rideshare. And the car pulls up And I've already put into the app what my goal is, which is what, to get to wherever your destination is. Yeah. Get to the airport. So they already know what the goal is, but I happen to know on this particular day that the most obvious path between my office and the airport is completely shut down with traffic. So I lean forward to my rideshare driver. It's like, hey. Don't take i Thirty 5. What is the value that I'm trying to protect by telling to take i 35?

Sheldon [00:31:59]:

Well, probably save yourself some money because you can get there faster and it's, you know, the you're in the car, this is the more cost. Yeah. This is the the value in this case is efficiency.

AJ Crabill [00:32:08]:

Right. And so I've now expressed what my vision is. Get me to the airport. and I've expressed what my value is get me there efficiently. Mhmm. And so now I've given the vision and the values Now so there's probably about 4 or 5 other ways that you could take to get to the airport. Whose job is it to make that decision? The driver's decision. The driver's job. And at some point, we're gonna have to speed up and slow down and turn left and turn right. Whose job is that? That's the driver's decision. So I'm sitting in the back of the so I shouldn't reach up and grab the steering wheel. Like, hey. You're about to whip this right. Right? That that's not on me. That's not me. That's not on you. Why not?

Sheldon [00:32:44]:

You're not driving? Why?

AJ Crabill [00:32:46]:

because you're not driving. Yeah. There's a difference between governing the vehicle and managing the vehicle. In that moment, I am governing the vehicle. I've said, here's the community's vision, here's the community's values, superintendent, drive us to the airport in the most efficient way possible. Mhmm. I've expressed the vision, my goals, and the values my guardrails. And now the superintendent's job is to implement the vision and values of the community as described by the school board. So the superintendent does not represent the community's vision and values. That is not their job. Their job is to listen for the vision and value of the community as expressed by the school board and then go operate within that. So that's the framework we need to have in mind. Now let's come back to your drama scenario. So Twitter starts blowing up Facebook, all that stuff. people are coming through angry at the school board meeting around any of the issues you described. Mhmm. The first thing that I want the school board to do is make sure they're spending 50 percent of their time focused on student outcomes. I don't care what the drama is. No amount of adult drama should take our focus away from what's possible for our children. This requires discipline. This requires discipline. And so when people are yelling at you, you will have this temptation to cater to what the folks are yelling about, you must resist that temptation up to the point that it pulls you away from being focused on children. So you do you have to attend to it. All I'm saying is don't attend to it to such a degree that you stop attending to the needs of children. children must always come first, period. No exceptions. Doesn't matter what the circumstances are. I don't care if there's a pandemic. I don't I don't care, you know, what the latest drama of your, you know, Twitter face pages. Like, students are the reason we're here. and improving student outcomes is the only reason we're here. So that should maintain 50% of your time, and your focus should remain on our children actually learning in our system or not. But with the other 50% of the time, you do need to be responsive to the communities, your concerns. And so I'd I'd be listening to figure out Do we have a guardrail that adequately captures this particular value of the community? And if we do, then Now it's a monitoring conversation superintendent. How are you how are you implementing this guardrail in a way that continues to honor the community's values? If we don't, maybe we need to have one. So take, you know, any of the topics you mentioned you mentioned

Sheldon [00:35:07]:

critical race there is a big one. quick course there. Yeah. You -- -- banning. Yeah.

AJ Crabill [00:35:12]:

equities, social roles, and learning, all these categories. Yeah. So curriculum issues. Yeah. We'll take that one. because that's that's popping off all over the country right now as well. So issues around curriculum. And is there a critical race theory in our curriculum, or is there not should there be or should there not be? Here's the thing. School boards represent the vision of values of their community. I actually see this as a feature not a flaw. that the vision and values of the community where you live are not the same as the vision and values of community where I live. So I'm not interested in telling you what the vision and values of your community should be, and you best not take it upon yourself to come and try to tell me what the vision values of my community should So what this does mean in reality is that different school systems are going to have a different take on all of these based on what the vision value of that community is. We can and it's a job of the board to listen for the vision value of that community to codify it in the form of goals and guardrails. and then use that to hold the superintendent in the administration accountable. This is why you have to be spending so much time monitoring because it's in the monitoring that gives a sense are you doing what our community expects you to do that's via its vision and its values, the via the board's goals and the board's guardrails? And so that's the challenge. The board has to listen for that and write it down in a way that is appropriate and relevant for their given community. and then put in place an accountability system to ensure that superintendent is actually following that. So whatever is the values of a particular community, then that's what the school board is likely going to honor. Now just because there are a hundred people who show up at a board meeting saying we want x, that doesn't necessarily tell you what the values of the community are. And so the board shouldn't have some knee jerk reaction to who is the loudest in their community. They should be thinking to themselves, okay. I am hearing this significant concern Part of my job as a board member is I need to figure out, is this a concern of the community, or is this a concern of a group of people within the community? Is this something that should be driving the entire school system, or is this something that should not be driving the entire school system? So the board needs to do listening. but that listening can't be restrained to the 100 loud voices, whichever way they're yelling, who show up at the board meeting. Now the board they have to listen and honor those voices But now to make sure that they are honoring all of the voices in the community, not just the privileged voices who show up at board meetings, that they're honoring all the voices in community actually need to go do the work to go out and listen to the community to figure out, are the things that we're hearing in the board meeting truly representative of the community as a whole or aberrant? And that they do reflect some community members, but just not a consensus of community. But the moment they go out to the community Eakins in this listening, And they find out that the okay. This particular perspective is in fact representative of our community as a whole, then they need to make the decision. Are we going to have guard rail around this that's going to that's gonna create a limitation on and constraint around what is appropriate or inappropriate. for the superintendent to do. So in the case of a community that is friendly to critical race theory and some of the the ideas surrounding that then they might say the superintendent may not eliminate critical race theory materials that include critical race theory. for a community that is antagonistic to that and say, well, this is not appropriate for our community. They may adopt a guardrail that says the superintendent may not use curriculum that contains critical race theory. And I would say both of those school systems, both of those school boards are doing their job, that they are authentically trying to represent the vision values of their particular community.

Sheldon [00:38:54]:

So what I'm hearing is it's not necessarily the leadership from the school board site, what they because even if they differ from whatever the community is saying as far as their thoughts on the content curriculum that's in, you know, being taught in the classrooms and things like that. But it's more of listening to doing the research and finding what is what does the community say or what how does the community feel? And not just like, I I'm glad you said not just the privileged folks that show up to the meetings and the loudest ones in these Eakins, but just doing a really good poll. Is that like, how how do I do that? Let's say because I think you bring up a good point because you you got parents that can't make it to the meetings, whatever times they're offered in all of these. So the coaching that we offer school boards is that you have to do 2 types of listening. community engagement, which is where you host meetings and people come to you and community outreach, which is where other people are having meetings and you get on their agenda to go where the people are at. So for example, in my last school system, we had a significant refugee community that had been resettled into our community

AJ Crabill [00:39:57]:

We're gonna hold all the meetings we want all day every day. They ain't showing up. Yeah. But they did have a refugee community center where a lot of those families were routinely at. And so in that case, for a lot of the other parents, we could do community engagement session. We'd host the meeting, and they would come to us. But in order to make sure that we also included the voice of our refugee families, we had to do a community outreach session where we call the community center and say, hey. The next time you got everybody can we come through? We'll have some interpreters present, and can we have this conversation with them as well. And so boards have to be mindful. Most boards get the community engaged part, but completely miss the community outreach part that you have to come down off your high horse, leave the days, leave the comfort of your gavel, and go to where the community is and do the listening there as well. AJ,

Sheldon [00:40:46]:

I've learned a lot. I I consider you as providing a voice to lead an athlete. Thank you so much for for dropping this this this this knowledge on us. I'd love for you to share with us maybe your final thoughts as we wrap things up. Actually, I just wanna wrap up with just a word of gratitude and appreciation for you. The work that you're doing, the conversations that you lead, the guests that you bring on

AJ Crabill [00:41:08]:

just any way that I can, you know, be an ally in the work that you're doing and lifting up the conversations you're trying to have to bring people into dialogue, to bring people into discussion around critical issues. Just I I appreciate what you're into, and calling me anytime.

Sheldon [00:41:24]:

Alright? Thank you. If we got some folks that want to connect with you, what's the best way to reach you online?

AJ Crabill [00:41:30]:

Shoot me an email. Either visit my website ajcraebel.com.justajcraibiill.com, or just email me. If folks really have something amazing happening for children, and you have some evidence for it. Like, don't call me if you have a good idea or, you know, something that you feel lovely about. Like, something you actually have some data that says, Here's how we've moved the needle for children, and and we wanna spread the word. I wanna help amplify that voice. I wanna help get the word out about things that are actually working. for young people. In that case, just shoot me an email. It's just [email protected]. Just [email protected].

Sheldon [00:42:05]:

Alright. Once again, I am here with AJ Craebel, author of great on their behalf, why school boards fail How yours can become effective, and, of course, there is going to be a link in the show notes. AJ, thank you so much for joining us today. Hey, Sheldon. Have a good one. Thank you so much.

Keywords

community vision, community values, goals, guardrails, rideshare, curriculum, critical race theory, community representation, administration accountability, community engagement, student outcomes, coaching, progress monitoring, leadership, election process, training, personal experience, educational expertise, diversity, balanced budget, parent satisfaction, staff employment, school lunches, adult inputs, engineer, doctor, student achievement, technology, classroom impact, meeting minutes, voting, progress monitoring.

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