Sheldon [00:00:00]:

Welcome advocates to another episode of the Leading Equity Podcast, a podcast that focuses on supporting educators with the tools and resources necessary to ensure equity at their schools. I have 2 special guests with me today, doctor Laura Kelly and doctor Ayesha Marshawn. They are coauthors of the chilling effects of so called critical race theory bands. This is out of rethinking schools. So without further ado, Laura, Ayesha, thank you so much for joining us today.

Laura Beth Kelly [00:00:29]:

Thank you. Great. Thank you.

Sheldon [00:00:32]:

Alright. Now I'm gonna excited for this topic because critical race theory, that conversation, it comes I mean, it still happened. You know? III remember when it first started picking up a lot of traction, I would say, in response to George Floyd and and how to be anti racist and white fragility, all those books were all that stuff was happening around that time. And then, of course, you get the pushback all these schools for anti racist schools. And and then now we started to see, oh, the critical race theory and all that. So I've really found your article very interesting. So before we get into that topic, I would love for the 2 of you to be able to share a little bit about yourselves and what you currently do. Aik, so I'm a start with you first. You tell us a little bit about yourself?

Aixa Marchand [00:01:10]:

Yeah. Thank you for that. So my name is doctor Ike Samarshaan. I'm currently an assistant professor at the University of Illinois, Urbana Champagne. It's my first year here. I started in August, and previously, I was at Rhodes College with my colleagues who wrote this piece with me, and that's a small liberal arts college in Memphis, Tennessee. Prior to that, I was in grad school at the of Michigan. And before that, I taught middle school science in Miami for 4 years.

Sheldon [00:01:38]:

Thank you very much. And what about yourself, Laura?

Laura Beth Kelly [00:01:42]:

I am an assistant professor at Rhodes College in Memphis, Tennessee, and I study language and literacy, learning and teaching in culturally and linguistically diverse environments. And I am also a former classroom teacher mostly at the elementary level.

Sheldon [00:02:03]:

Alright. I love Memphis, by the way. So I I love music. I love Memphis music. I I was just listening to project Pat earlier this morning at the gym. So that's what's up. Alright. Alright. So, Laura, I wanna ask you the first question in in regards to the the topic, the chilling effects of so called critical race theory band kinda wanna get your take as far as, like, what drew you to wanting to write about this and then even because there's several authors that there are several colleagues that collaborated on this. Piece and kinda what drew you to bringing in those colleagues to to join you with this?

Laura Beth Kelly [00:02:38]:

Yeah. So At Rhodes College, several years ago, we had what is called the Urban Education Summer Fellowship, and we would have undergraduate students who would meet with us in a seminar once a week to talk about issues in education. And I was supervising a student who was kind of interested in this topic And so she brought the law to the group to discuss. And so we had maybe 3 or 4 faculty members, including all of the coauthors on this piece and 3 or 4 or 5 undergraduate students sitting around talking about the law. And that got me really interested in what teachers would say if we could have teachers sitting around talking about the law. I've always been really interested in how policy shows up in the classroom. I think it's kind of a common refrain that teachers feel frustrated by policies. Which it doesn't have to be because there could be good policies. But I I was really curious what would happen and and what we would learn if we got Tennessee teachers to actually read what the policy says and share what they thought about it. And so I reached out to everyone in my department at the time, and most people were interested in the collaboration. So Aikha as well as Lara Taylor and Kara Janko More, who are also co authors decided to come together and make the project and talk to current and future teachers about this law.

Sheldon [00:04:08]:

Tell me a little bit more about the law. What what law specifically are you referring 2.

Laura Beth Kelly [00:04:13]:

So it's Tennessee's so called critical race theory ban. It's Tennessee senate bill 0623. It has a list of 11 prohibited concepts. So these are the things that teachers cannot include or teach or have present in their curricular materials or endorse the students or have students engage within the classroom. And some of the things that you're prohibited to teach are super logical and nobody would think that you would be teaching those things anyway. So, for example, the first prohibited concept is you cannot teach that 1 race or gender is inherently superior to another race or gender, which feels like it's pulling the language of the civil rights movement. Like, of course, nobody hopefully, is teaching that. That's not like a widespread problem in public schools. That someone is openly promoting the racial superiority of 1 group. So it already, it starts off with this language of making you think it's, like, pro civil rights legislation. It's reasonable. Or that schools have really gone off the deep end, and we need this legislation to corral the events. So it starts off with things like that. But it also gets into saying that you can't teach that any individual is inherently privileged because of their race, so that's gonna limit any discussion of white privilege. It also says that you can't teach that the state of Tennessee or the United States is inherently or fundamentally racist. So if you wanna talk about stolen land or genocide of native peoples or building capitalism out of the stolen labor of enslaved African descended people, some people would say that's fundamentally racist, but you can't say that's fundamentally racist under this law.

Sheldon [00:06:02]:

Okay. There's a lot there. Aikso, I'm gonna throw this 1 out to you. Yes. What was your I I guess my question would be, Axel, what was your initial thoughts when you came across the law? You had a chance to unpack it, read through it. What were your thoughts?

Aixa Marchand [00:06:19]:

Yeah. You know, in preparation for this project, you know, Laura and the team, we did a lot of, like, research on where did it come from, where did it stem from, and I remember early on, there was sort of this ban on, you know, diversity trainings and government sort of entities. And I was just like, oh, this is interesting. Never would have thought it would have evolved into, like, a CRT van in public schools. Right? So it's like I think about that moment when I had first heard about, this diversity, you know, training band. And it's all following the same sort of thread, but, you know, when you hear about that, you never know Or maybe, you know, people who are more savvy do kind of see this coming, but I didn't. And when I started to sort of hear about it in the public school setting, you know, it's exactly what Laura said. We had this conversation with the undergrads, but what I think was even more fascinating was at the time the same crew of us that are on this paper, we're also teaching master students, master students who are currently in the classroom And they had a totally different sort of perspective, and it was based off of probably their experience within the classroom and their experience with sort of top down sort of policies in the district. And they have this sort of notion of, oh, it's not gonna affect us. You know, this is all this isn't gonna actually, you know, affect me. Whereas the undergrad students who haven't necessarily had time is as classroom teachers, we're very, very worried about what this is going to mean for their future in the classroom. So I was mostly intrigued about how different people were taking up this law differently. The undergrad to, you know, folks who are, like, in their first second year of teaching, they're only a couple years an age different, but had very, like, vastly different responses to how this was actually gonna affect them.

Sheldon [00:08:07]:

What were some of those responses?

Aixa Marchand [00:08:11]:

Yeah. I mean, it varied. It vary a lot. There were some students that we heard who were prepared to actively resist. There were some students who were saying, you know, this doesn't affect me. You know, I teach kindergarten or something. Like, this isn't ever gonna you know, sort of hit on the curriculum that I'm teaching. But I think the thing is, this is more than just the curriculum. A lot of the discussions that we had in these focus groups are, you know, what happens when my student comes into the classroom and is telling me about what just happened to, like, Tyre Nichols? In Memphis. Right? How do we have those conversations when we can't talk about, like, white supremacy and policing? So, you know, these are the sort of struggles and frustrations that we heard in the focus groups of like, this isn't just necessarily what I have to teach in this history book. But it's also like the social climate that we live in, and these topics are being discussed. So how do we navigate this without breaking the law?

Laura Beth Kelly [00:09:08]:

I would echo that. I think a lot of our teachers didn't feel concerned that they really had a curriculum that was that deep in addressing anything about race and like, we had 1 participant say, like, I've never had a curriculum that would make me feel worried about this because, basically, the curriculum was already what they considered to be surface level or not address these topics anyway. But they did, as Ayesha said, they they did have a lot of concern about trying to help students navigate their own realities and trying to have conversations that might pop up outside the space of the formal curriculum.

Sheldon [00:09:50]:

And the thing about it is and and I guess it's sad in in a sense. I don't know if it's sad as the right word, but it it it really makes me think. I mean, it wasn't just the history stuff. Right? Like like, you know, genocide and enslaved enslaved folks and and, you know, colonialism and all that stuff that but even current day, like, stuff happening in your own city, your own town, your own community, how do I address this? How do I have these conversations? And I really personally, I I feel that we're doing our kids with disservice, and we don't engage in these conversations. And I would even add just to add on top of that, a lot of times people say, oh, well, you know, it makes sense for maybe our history teachers or our social studies teachers, things like that. But what about our STEM folks? How does that impact them as well? So what are so okay. Okay. So, Laura, I'm I'm throwing this back to you. What type of coaching are you able to do or maybe even the question could also be, what has changed or how have you been able to navigate your classes with this new law that has been passed? A couple angles to approach that there.

Laura Beth Kelly [00:10:59]:

1 thing that a conviction that I have is that this is that teachers across all ages and all disciplines should be engaging students in talking about these critical issues in raising their critical consciousness, in helping them see the political implications of whatever the subject is. So for example, Ayesha mentioned kindergarten teachers who didn't fill the supplies to them. I used to teach kindergarten Kindergartners can talk about hard things. And so we heard kindergarten teachers tell us, oh, this doesn't come up with our young kids. And I'm like, well, it does in their life, but apparently not in your class. Room. And we so I I really want teachers to know that there are possibilities for critical conversations at all levels. And we also heard, as you mentioned, STEM teachers who say, well, I just teach math or I just teach science. Which is apparently just neutral numbers that are never construed to mean anything that someone might have a multiple interpretation of. And I disagree with that too. I think that, you know, for example, if you're studying, for instance, wealth inequality, that seems like a mathematical concept. Or if you're studying why there's lead in the water in Flint, that seems like science. Or if you're studying who's disproportionately impacted by climate change, That seems like science. So I think that these things can bleed across all levels and all disciplines And as far as coaching and helping prospective educators understand that, it it is a challenge, and that's work that I've done, for example, in a course I teach about curriculum and instruction, which is, of course, you know, most people at most colleges take to become an educator. Is to try to help them see the opportunities for anti racist and multicultural teaching at whatever level and at whatever discipline. But if someone teaches at a level or in a discipline that is kind of popularly construed as new -- or culture free, which is not real, but is the thing a lot of people think. It it is hard. It it's a challenge. And so I tried to Point them to resources. Rethinking schools is a good 1 that puts out lots of, you know, math and science content that promotes anti racism, but try to help people get connected to resources so that they can imagine different ways other than just, like, facts, facts, facts, but different ways that they can teach these things. Something I'll add to that. I echo everything you said, Laura, but we are doing just such a disservice to our students, especially when we aren't able to make these sort of historical connections to the current events that are happening right now in their lives

Aixa Marchand [00:13:47]:

if we're not able to sort of connect it to, you know, sort of white supremacy for centuries and all of these things that are, you know, have created the conditions in which we live. It just makes it seem like this 1 off theme. And I think that that is gonna reiterate doing a disservice to our students because we're not allowing them to make these critical links and think critically about things. It's just like, oh, well, this happened. And and now we move forward and not, like, oh, this happened, and it's related to this thing that just happened last year, and it's related to this thing that happened a hundred years ago. And if we're not able to do that, I think that it's gonna it's gonna really impact the future way that, you know, students who are being taught under these bands could potentially think about, you know, the future, the future world. Right?

Speaker D [00:14:40]:

Author of the best selling book Speaking equity. Coming advocate for all students, doctor Chanel Aiken is a highly sought after speaker and trainer. I would know because that's my dad. For booking, check out leading equity center dot com slash consulting, or use the link in the show notes.

Sheldon [00:15:01]:

You know, 1 of the things that stood out to me in the article was you mentioned doctor King was assassinated. You know, he was killed in in your town. Right? Memphis. In Memphis. And Now doctor King is is often the 1 of the acceptable African American figures that is, you know, that is brought up in January, at least, at the minimum. Right? We we celebrate the days off, you know, everything like that. That happens. But you can't talk about him? Or, like, how did you and and and how does that work when it because even with Juneteenth. Right? They they made Juneteenth federal law. But it was right in the heart of of critical race theory stuff and all that stuff and all these bands. I was like, I could tell my kids, oh, you're off on June 19. However, I can't tell you why. This is this is a celebration. So what are your thoughts on it? Either of you could take this on, but, I mean, how does that impact education?

Laura Beth Kelly [00:16:01]:

That was something that we heard from several participants. So I think the quote you're alluding to, we had a teacher who had taught about the sanitation strike in Memphis where doctor King was visiting in support, and that was the time he was assassinated. And she said, So I guess now I can't teach that lesson because I guess we were thinking critically about race. And thinking critically about race, is not the definition critical race theory, and it's not what the law outlaws. So 1 concern that I have is that people overread or overapply the law, and they think, like, saying anything about race is now off the table. And I think that's not right because that isn't literally what the law says, but I also think it sort of is right because it is the spirit and the attention of the law. So they're reading the law wrong, but they're not reading the political climate wrong. So I I think they're correct that they are in danger of, like, becoming a media spectacle or generating a big parent complaint that blows up at a school board. Like, I think that's right. That really might happen the way seen a lot of stories of that happening. But the Tennessee law, despite that list of 11 prohibited concepts, it actually does have for, like, allowable practices or things you can still do. And the things that you can still do include teaching the history of, I think it says, an ethnic group, And it also says you're still allowed to, quote, impartially talk about both controversy and oppression. So I don't know what it means to talk impartially about those things. It seems like you ought to have an opinion on them, but I I do think that that people still can do some things, but also like, that's why the article's called chilling effects. Because even though you still could teach about race, people are kind of self censoring out of fear of what the political climate could do.

Aixa Marchand [00:17:54]:

Yeah. I wanna add on to, you know, just thinking about the students that we teach in Memphis and the fact that, like, for example, MLK was fascinated there. So, like, you're teaching them a lesson that their grandparents might have been there for, right? And it's like we know and you know, all of this education research, there's tons of knowledge and, you know, culturally relevant teaching and bringing, you know, lived experiences into the classroom. And it's like, these are their lived experiences. These are their histories. And now we're saying we can't talk about it. Well, that's what the laws of, you know, trying to say. And it's just really interesting because we we looked at the actual law with our participants in the focus groups And what Laura was just mentioning about this, like, notion of impartial, I feel like in all of the sort of focus groups that I was in, there was a large conversation about what does it even mean to be impartial? It's just so vague and, like, hard to even define or really understand what this law is saying. You know, a lot of participants were just like, this is a badly written piece of legislation.

Sheldon [00:19:04]:

Raise your hand if you buy that book by Doctor. Sheldon Anakin's. What's your hand at? Looking for an engaging speaker for your next event? Whether it's webinars, workshops, keynotes, or 1 on 1 coaching, I'm here to help you. Our students live in 2 different worlds often. The norms in their community, and then the norms within their school. And they often aren't the same. For more information, go to leading equity center dot com slash consulting or click on the link in the show notes, and let's work together. So, Ayesha, do you think that there are a lot of educators that are misinterpreting or misreading or maybe misunderstanding the law. Yeah. And so as a result, maybe individuals

Aixa Marchand [00:19:54]:

are not teaching anything that has to do with race, like, enslaved folks or whatever it is that has to do anything with race. They're they they don't wanna touch it. Because they don't wanna get in trouble? A hundred percent. Absolutely. I think that 1 big way to sort of resist this is understand it. Right? So maybe there should be more groups of teachers who are critically sitting down and thinking like, okay, well, what is it exactly saying? Because, you know, it's now a buzzword, critical race theory, and it's just like, okay, I'm not gonna touch that with a 10 foot pole. But even the fact that it's called critical race theory, you know, it is not what the actual theory is. It's just this buzzword that I think that the conservative right was able to just kind of use as a talking point, and now that's it's sort of spun out of control. But, yeah, I think that knowing exactly what it is in this legislation will sort of free people to be like, oh, okay. Actually, I don't do this, so I can continue to do what I've been doing. Yeah. To give an example of

Laura Beth Kelly [00:20:56]:

teachers maybe misunderstanding the law. 1 of the prohibited concepts, you are not allowed to teach that students should feel and I forget the exact term, but it's something like guilt or psychological anguish because of their race. And so that's being interpreted erroneously according to the strict interpretation of the text to mean people can never feel bad about anything they learn at school. But if you hear about something awful, you should feel bad. That's a human response. But feeling bad or or, like, not liking to learn that some atrocity has occurred is different from your teacher telling you you're supposed to feel bad because you are white, for example. And so this provision is coming out of these high profile stories of parents who are like, my white child came home and learns this thing happened, and now they feel bad because they're white. And I don't think white kids should feel bad at school. But if you learn about something that happened and you have an adverse emotional response, that's different from I feel bad because of my race or I personally am taking responsibility for it. 1 thing I do wanna say I agree with, Ayik, so that if teachers understand exactly what it says, it will free them up to to have a little more space in their curriculum to understand what they still can do. But we're not saying you should read it and understand it so you can work around it. We're saying it's bad, and it should be repealed. And people should challenge it, and people should organize to resist it. People should take it to court. It's so we're not saying that, like, the way forward is for teachers to just find the space to make it work. We're saying that it's bad. Yeah.

Sheldon [00:22:42]:

So what you're saying is the law is bad. Is is that what I heard, Laura? That's what I'm saying. Well, I'm looking at some of the prohibited cons and I folks, I'm gonna leave the the link in the show notes so y'all can check it out. But if you scroll down to the end, it it shows the 11 different things. Like, number 8 says this state or the United States is fundamentally or irredeemably sexist and or racist or sexist. I mean, there's there's a lot in here promoting division between a resentment between race, sex, religion, creed, nonviolent, political affiliation. Like, they just took so I if I'm a teacher in in Tennessee, I could imagine how there could be some pressure as a as an educator, especially if I'm a history teacher or even a English teacher. So I I guess the question that I have is what kind of strategies are you given to your candidates, to your your on the graduate level, maybe on your future teachers? What type of strategies are you given to them to say, look. I want you to be confident in that classroom. Mhmm. Forget you know, here's here's here's some here's some strategies for you while you're teaching. I'm gonna ask you this. What what kind of things are you telling your your your, I guess, your teachers and your candidates?

Aixa Marchand [00:23:53]:

Mhmm. Well, something I wanna say is that, you know, this isn't unique to Tennessee. Like, we're talking about the specific you know, Tennessee law. And, yes, we all were in Tennessee when we were, you know, doing this project, but this is happening in numerous states across the Right? So, like, if you're listening, don't just be like, oh, this doesn't affect me because I'm not in Tennessee. And I think I would say something similar to teacher. It is like, don't just write this off because you don't think it affects you. Don't be the kindergarten teacher who's like, oh, this doesn't affect me, so I can ignore it. Because similar to my own experience that I shared, like, you know, there was the ban on these diversity trainings, and I just kinda was like, oh, that's never gonna hit public education, and then it did. Right? So, like, I think that all teachers should be, like Laura said, resisting, advocating, pushing against this. Because even though you're a kindergarten teacher and you don't think it affects you, the next 1 the next thing might. Right? And we we are seeing sort of the next iteration of all of these prohibitive legislation. So I would say definitely communal community action against this. So not just the history teachers, not just the English teachers, But, you know, all teachers need to be sort of advocating to make sure that their students have an inclusive education

Laura Beth Kelly [00:25:08]:

regardless of that is specifically in your classroom or not. And building on that idea of if you think it doesn't affect you, it may come to affect you. At the time that we did this study, I think we were talking to teachers in the fall of 20 21 and the spring of 20 22, and it was before there was widespread book banning. And now there's a lot of I I feel like book bands are a direct descendant of this kind of law. Think it comes I think it's a straight line from 1 to the other. And somehow, none of us foresaw that at the time, and none of the teachers in our groups mentioned Next thing, they'll be banning books. The next thing, they were banning books. And this does come to effect even our kindergarten teachers. 1 of our coauthors Yesterday was telling me that the students at her children or the the PTA at her children's school in Memphis is asking parents to come in and catalog all the books in the classroom library. Because if there's not a list of all the titles and not the school library, the classroom library. Like, the books that the teacher has bought with their own money to have for kindergarteners to be able to read when they finish their work early. Those have to be listed online for parental review or they cannot be in the classroom. So we've got a bunch of Tennessee teachers that have just thrown all the books out of their classroom because they don't have the time and the resources to type up 2000 titles for parents to review and comb through. So, yes, I I echo that it it does expand to be more things than it seemed to be at first. And I echo you asked for strategies, and I think our 2 strategies are we encourage collective resistance and organization And then we also encourage people to know what it actually says so they don't self censor themselves beyond what's actually required.

Sheldon [00:27:01]:

They're trying to follow the law. So they're legit telling the teachers that they gotta categorize their their lie their, I guess, their classroom libraries just so that's Oh my gosh. See, as if we don't already have enough on Monday. -- to do.

Laura Beth Kelly [00:27:17]:

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It that was another law that followed on the heels of this 1 in Tennessee, and it was called the age appropriate materials act. And so there's -- right now to try to get an exemption or an amendment, I'm not sure the appropriate legal term, put on that law to exempt classroom libraries because we all know that kindergarten and first grade teachers are not, like, stocking the classroom libraries with pornography or whatever the accusation is. And so, like, it's really not necessary for a kindergarten teacher to catalog all these books. But, yeah, that was another law that followed on the heels of this 1.

Sheldon [00:27:57]:

Mhmm. Well, folks, Folks that are listening and and I'm I'm glad I hate to mention this. It's not just limited to Memphis or Tennessee. Right? It's not just a Tennessee law. I mean, definitely, this happened in Texas. I've I've talked to Hedrick Nichols, and she's talked about what was going on in Texas. I live in Idaho. We were, like, the first ones. To do critical race theory, like bands and all that stuff. So it is a thing that is is is growing. And as you mentioned, it is not just we can't talk about it, but now the books are and I always say it's such an irony, like, ironic thing to me. You're saying you can only have or students can only read the books that I think are are acceptable. But we're we're talking about the other those those books that we're taking out are are, you know, making kids feel bad or whatever, you know, whatever the the argument is. But I'm like, but you're still trying to control the situation yourself. And the irony behind all of that, to me, just doesn't make any sense. So as you mentioned, I I think it was Laura that mentioned We didn't we didn't see the book banning coming. Do you think that there could be some eventual I don't know, further bans in some some other areas that we don't know. Like, if you were to project or or foresee something down the road, what do you think might be targeted next?

Aixa Marchand [00:29:14]:

So you're asking us what the dystopian future is? I don't I was like, I don't like to use, you know, use my free time to think about in the future and how terrible it can be, but I think maybe we should because, yeah, it can devolve very fast.

Laura Beth Kelly [00:29:29]:

Yeah. I don't know. I was recently at a conference where a version of this question was asked not specifically about this policy, but kind of just the general policy environment. And the panel answered that, like, well, in in that dystopian future, kids will be, like, sitting at their desk independently on their tablets, just clicking their way through the curriculum that's been preapproved. And I'm like, oh, that's not the dystopian future. That's our decision. Like, that's that's what we already have. So I don't know. Like, I can't think of a concrete like this is what will happen next, but I do think there's there's more scrutiny on teachers. There's more public scrutiny on teachers. We already have few and fewer people wanting to enter the profession because we've made it so undesirable, and these wells are absolutely a part of that. They increase the workload on teachers. They may people afraid that they're gonna be a public spectacle just for trying to do what they consider to be good work. And so I think it's part of a larger assault on public education. And -- Yeah. -- I mean, we already had a staffing issue The pandemic made it worse, and this policy climate makes it worse. So I'm afraid to imagine in specifics where it goes I don't know. I'd rather, like, lead on with something hopeful of, like, groups are organizing to to bring against this, which we can talk about that too if you want to. But it does kind of seem really it is really discouraging. It doesn't seem to be, like, bending in a in a positive direction in the near term future, unfortunately.

Aixa Marchand [00:31:09]:

You know, something I feel like we have to mention is sort of, like, what's going on in Florida. Right? With, like, the ban on the APF, we're gonna American history course and things like that. And, you know, as Laura mentioned, I think that's a straight line between all of these things, just really sort of dictating what can and what cannot be taught, what is and what is not important, what is and what is, you know, relevant to, you know, the education of young children. What do we value as a society? I think it is, like you mentioned, an assault on public education. There's already a disinvestment from that space. 1 thing with this, you know, prohibited concepts law in Tennessee is that sort of the consequence if you get caught, like, you know, talking about 1 of those 11 concepts is that they will strict state funds for your school. And I just thought that was wild because I'm like, they're already not funding the schools super well from the state level. So then to, you know, take away a percentage of that funding for each infraction just shows, I think, this whole the whole goal of all of these measures is to sort of disinvest further from public school education. Wow.

Sheldon [00:32:26]:

And and and and, you know, Laurie, I think you brought up a good point about we don't wanna forecast the future. Like, like, maybe it's not the best conversation to have. So III do I do agree. I think that's fair enough at the end of the day. I was just looking at well, which 1 was it? Number was it number 2? You know, individual by virtue of the individual's race or sex is inherently privileged as if the privilege doesn't exist. You know? The there's I'm I'm a male. I definitely believe that there's male privilege. Like, there's there's so much you know, anyway. But, again, I I just feel like some of these these things are just trying to uphold white supremacy at the end of the day. And this is this you know, we've we've done a lot of things throughout our history of what we call the United States of America, and don't talk about it. The the ugly truth. Let's just celebrate what we celebrate, and let's discuss what we always have discussed. And let's keep it moving, but it's just too much happening right now. We wanna keep our control. Yeah. I was I was just watching Chris Rock the other night when he did his special. And 1 of the things he he was talking about the January sixth, and I'm not gonna try to say his joke. But, essentially, he said, it was white men that were complaining about the government, which is run by white men. And and just just have his whole take on that. Just just just conversation kinda reminds me of that. Aixa and Laura, I have truly have thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. I'd love for you to take us home with your final thoughts. Ayesha, I'm a start with you first. Yeah. I would say, you know, something that keeps me in education is that I think that the younger generation always gives me hope.

Aixa Marchand [00:34:07]:

And, like, the 1 of the the best quotes that I remember from the focus groups is when 1 of our participants said, like, you know, for this law to affect me, like, Billie's gonna have to write a better law. So I really enjoyed that. And even just kinda following the news and hearing about, like, you know, the AP African American History ban, like, there are students who are standing up and saying, like, no, this is important. For me to learn. So it really is this younger generation, I think, that notices that this is not right. Right? And I think that it's been really refreshing to see sort of the resistance, not even from the teachers particularly, but from youth and how they're saying, like, you know, this is wrong and something needs to change. Because, you know, hopefully, we can keep that enthusiasm for them because, you know, hopefully, we can keep that enthusiasm for them because, you know, they are the future. Right? It sounds cliche, but, you know, as an educator, of course, we're gonna want you know, we're gonna see the world through the hopeful eyes of the students that we teach.

Sheldon [00:35:05]:

I love that piece in me. And I always say, when folks would tell me, oh, you know, I feel like I'm I'm hitting walls, and it's just me and the only 1 doing this work where I'm in a position where feel like I might lose my job if I say too much more. And and I always say, use students. Students can't get fired. Kids aren't going to get fired. And they have a lot more weight and carry a lot more weight than you might carry as an educator in your position in your role. So I I really appreciate that piece. Laura, what what about you? What are your final thoughts? I wanna echo that

Laura Beth Kelly [00:35:37]:

hope that I get when I see students themselves resisting. I also wanna lift up the work of teacher organizations that are collaborating to fight against us I know thousands of teachers have signed the pledge to teach truth from the ZYN education project, and there are other organizations that are coming together to provide professional development and promote anti racist teaching. And so that is encouraging. I've read a lot of speculation in law review journals where people don't think these laws will hold up in court, that they're too vague, that they are too broad and that they may be violation of either student and or teachers for a student that writes. And so there are legal teams working to bring challenges to do these laws. There are also lots of states where counter legislation has been introduced, states that are requiring ethnic studies where they haven't required it before. And so that's encouraging as well. I also think that just The world has shifted on its axis, and we can't go back. And the it's true that you can try to restrict what taught in public schools, but kids these days are on the Internet. And they also have access to the text that is their lives. And they know stuff, and they're gonna keep learning things. And the thought that children only learn things through public schools It's kind of ridiculous. They learn stuff all day long, all the time through all kinds of media, and People can try to stop the spread of critical analysis or structural analysis or accurate history but it just can't be stopped. It is out there, and kids want it, and they will find it. And people are working to resist, and I I wanna lift up and encourage that work too.

Sheldon [00:37:36]:

Love that. Laura, if we got some folks that wanna connect with you, what's the best way to reach you online?

Laura Beth Kelly [00:37:41]:

I am kind of a conscientious subject through the social media, so they'll have to email me. But it's kelly l at roads dot EDU.

Sheldon [00:37:50]:

Alright. What about you, Aixa?

Aixa Marchand [00:37:54]:

My email is probably best. It's ADMARCH at Illinois dot EDU. I'm also on Twitter at Ayesha Marshawn. Don't check it as much, but if you want to find me there, you can.

Sheldon [00:38:07]:

Alright. Well, once again, I am speaking to doctor Laura Kelly and doctor Aixa Marshawn, authors or co authors of the chilling effects of so called critical race theory bands out of the rethinking school's article. Of course, I believe a link in the show notes Aixa and Laura, it has truly been a pleasure. Thank you so much for your time.

Laura Beth Kelly [00:38:28]:

Yes. Thank you.

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