Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:00:00]:

Welcome advocates to another episode of the Lead And Equity podcast. A podcast that focuses on supporting educators with the tools and resources necessary to ensure equity at their skulls. Today's special guest is one half of the authorship of in support of students a leader's guide to Equitable MTSS, and that is out of Josie Bass, Wiley Productions, or publications rather just came out. Book is now available. Of course, there's a link in the show notes folks, but I have doctor Kristin Rodriguez here with me today. Christian, thank you so much for joining us.

Kristan Rodriguez [00:00:38]:

Thank you for having me.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:00:40]:

Pleasure. Always mine. I've had your colleague Katie on doctor Novak a few times. as well. So I was glad. I'm glad to meet you. But before we get into today's conversation, I'd love for you to share a little bit about yourself and what you currently do. Alright. Wonderful. I'm so excited to be on this. My work bestie Katie speaks so highly of this podcast, and I've really enjoyed it as a listener. So it's fun to to be here talking to you today.

Kristan Rodriguez [00:01:04]:

We wrote this this book in support of students equitable MTSS, as a call to action of our colleagues to make sure that we are thinking about the systems that we need to create to support all learners. Never more so than today, but not only as a reaction to the past couple of years of living through the pandemic. I think it just highlighted the need for this. So I am a, by trade a former educator, teacher, principal, and superintendent of schools. And now I get to work with schools in kind of supporting their professional learning experiences and redesigning those systems. And so really that's the heart of book is working with our colleagues across the world to create conditions, for all students to be successful and not most all. I mean, that's That's the expectation and that's the goal. And we, through practice, have seen it work. That means all educators as well can change their practice to make the environment ready for for all learners.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:02:09]:

I I almost wanna have you say that again. Not all. I'm sorry. Not most. But, oh, why why is that so important? So okay. Alright. Let's let's I'm jumping ahead of myself, but that that really That's like sound bite that was mic drop that was, like, I really liked that one. So thank you for saying that. But let let let here's a question because, okay, we hear MTSS. And for those, let's say that aren't as familiar, you break that down. What is MTSS from an equitable lens?

Kristan Rodriguez [00:02:40]:

So MTSS stands for multi tiered systems of support, and really it's an outgrowth of the work that was done years ago in trying to create interventions and supports for students across. However, I say MTSS is school. it really isn't an intervention program. It is not a pre referral program. it's how we create the system and environment so that all learners can succeed. And we do that through really robust universal support in tier 1, and then we might need some kids at any point in their schooling career might need some targeted support, and we provide that to them. And at any point in their schooling career, they may need intensive support. And we provide that to them, that targeted support we call tier 2. in intensive support we call tier 3, and I wanna be really clear that intensive support in tier 3 is not synonymous with special education, which So students with disabilities may need support at, any on all levels and students that, do not have a disability may need support across all three levels. And so we wanna be thoughtful in the design of our system, so we're not excluding. One of the things when we talk about the equitable lens is that we really do not want to set kids up to fail in order to get the next level of support and service. which traditionally is how response to intervention or RTI work. So you provide an intervention for kids. They don't do well. You provide a more intensive intervention. We do not want them to fail. We wanna be proactive about the supports we provide, and that's really one of the biggest distinguishers between a response to intervention framework and an MTSS framework,

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:04:24]:

even though some people think that they are the same. You're on fire today. I am so glad you said tier 3 is not fed because that is often what we get is, you know, tier 3 is our special ed folks. and okay. I want I wanna break that down a little bit more because I know you do a lot of work with universal design for learning, and people often have that myth that UDL is for our special ed folks. So can you tie in or connect rather how UDL and tier 3 can work together.

Kristan Rodriguez [00:04:58]:

Absolutely. So when we created kind of the matrix or this this picture of MTSS, but he actually hired a graphic designer. And we said, we wanna get rid of the triangle. we wanted to get rid of the trialing image for 2 reasons. 1, we did not wanna pit social emotional against academic or social emotional only in pursuit of academic. and we did not want it to Eakins look like an arrow of just one level moving towards. We really wanted so our image is a schoolhouse, believe it or not. and the supports that we receive through the tiers go back and forth. And on the, the 3 domains, the academic, the social, emotional, and behavioral are all equal domains that are in support of 1 another. On the outer circle of our image, actually, are 2 things. One is equitable access, and the other is universal design. So universal design for learning is the way that we think about learner variability in the systems work that we create. So as we construct our learning environments, as we provide professional development to staff and support their competency in the work that they do as we think about the leadership measures, the the materials that we resource, We're thinking about it from a lens of access and equity Eakins that are there barriers that we're creating artificial barriers that we're creating to students in just even on our systems design. Those can be anything from providing intervention services, so you have to have an IEP in order to get support with a reading specialist. Well, what's gonna happen? Parents are gonna advocate or teachers are gonna advocate for, special education evaluation. We're gonna be over inundated with special education evaluation because without that, they're not gonna get the support and service. So by being more proactive in that, we're thoughtful. What are some of the other barriers within our systems that we can universally design? 1 is thinking about access to higher level coursework. you know, removing some of that tracking sequence that if we get into, our 1st year of 9th grade, we will never be able to get into those higher levels, of course, work. how are we excluding our students, both from the classes through disproportionality Eakins educator evaluation, where It's not an inclusionary model and we're pulling kids out or in disciplinary models where we're pulling them out of their classroom environment. So, again, this is bigger than just making sure that as we design lessons, we're thinking about the effective network in the brain, which is a huge component which is engagement. Right? How do we engage our students and give them a sense of belonging, give them a sense of agency in their own path and education to how do we present information in multiple means of representation in ways that are accessible to all students And then how do we have them demonstrate their learning, multiple means of action expression? Those are the 3 core components

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:07:53]:

of universal design. So we think that and we apply it to the systems, not just into the classroom. You know, I I I as I listen to this, like, kicking myself. I was like, man, I wish I had read this book before our interview because I'm I because as you're I mean, you spend game And so I'm just like, yo, see, I I gotta get my hands on this book, but the the thing that I'm really interested in is is just like because multi multi tier systems of support, we often see it from the academic side, but you've mentioned multiple times already about the emotional side, the social side of things as well. I'm just curious. Again, we're thinking about it from an equitable lens How did you was it maybe experience that you had in implementing MTSS at a school or district wide level that kinda made you want to or at least helped you understand that we need to go beyond the academic side of things and then NTSS needs to have the social and emotional side of things as well?

Kristan Rodriguez [00:08:55]:

so the the Genesis was both from experience and research. Right? So the research is very clear that if we, do not meet the mental health, social, emotional behavioral needs of our students, along with the academic, they're not going to be successful in our schools. A lot of the research within universal design for learning is about how do we minimize threats and distract within their learning pathways and how do we make sure that we support regulation, self regulation, how do we give them agency in their own learning so they get a sense of engagement and belongingness. So those pieces came from the research where it it's passionate to me is that we saw it work at the school level. So, you know, when I first, became a superintendent of schools, I actually was a superintendent in a very high performing school district, but we were not meeting the needs of all learners. And so that really kept me up at night. And so what we did was we thought across all of those domains, how are we assessing positive outcomes, right, not just within the academic realm, but how are we assessing the needs of our students? how are we engaging them in that process? Because what we measure is what we value. Right? And so if we only measure academics, we're not going to and we only hold ourselves accountable for academics, then we're not going to make sure that it's a priority in our planning, in our budgeting, in our staffing, our scheduling. And so what this book really does is says, think about those measures of database decision Eakins. of effective instructional practices that are linguistically supportive, culturally sustaining trauma informed so that all of our students may are we're addressing all of those domains within that, that it's not one in service of the other that it's all. They should all feel engaged. No matter the class, they should all feel like they belong in those schools. And one of the catalysts for writing the 1st book university design leadership was the tremendous outcomes where my students with disabilities on SAT and AP scores were above the national average for students without disability. And that was because we raised the the the floor for all everybody rose up, not just students with disabilities, but they were it wasn't targeted just for them. It was a systemic change, and they benefited greatly by that. So that's what, you know, really to me, let the fire beneath me to say I have to kind of move outside my my comfortable situation where I have this district, and I love everyone that I work with. and I love the community and all the students was we have to share this message because this works, and it's not about us. That's why I said, when I walk away, This work will not, and it did not stop, and they continued to make growth when I wasn't there because it's really about systems and not about individuals.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:11:47]:

It's really about systems, not about individuals. I I don't know how you keep coming up with these portables. but you you are you're good. You're good. You're this is good. This is a good conversation. Alright. I I like this. And and as I'm and I was listening to your response. I'm thinking about my audience here, and I'm like, I hope that my audience, my my leaders out there, aren't gonna feel overwhelmed. Like, oh, we need to do MTSS. We've been kinda thinking about it. But, man, it sounds like a lot. You know, you you talked about trauma informed. You talked about this. You talked about that. And I hate the question. Where do you start, or how do you begin? I hate that question so much. but I kinda wanna ask if I'm interested in trying to get MTSS at my school, if I'm a school leader, What would you suggest as one of the starting points with getting that done? So one thing that we wanna do is make sure that that the

Kristan Rodriguez [00:12:46]:

leaders eyes that this is not something that's gonna get accomplished in a year. Okay. And that feeling overwhelmed is a natural part of systems change. We created a self assessment, that you could use that complements this book, and we through the book, walk you through the process of using data, documents and the self assessment as a means to determine your starting point so you can create really responsive targeted action plans that you support through a course of a number of years with measurable goals. We will feel more overwhelmed without really assessing ourselves against the whole system and Eakins guessing where we wanna begin. Is that a school is I'm sorry. Is that is that a school self assessment or an individual leadership self assessment? It's a district level. It's an organizational level self assessment. So depending on what the system is, You can apply that to the district or school level, but it isn't it is intended to be, with a group of people. We don't wanna do this work in isolation. Okay. And so what we look at is where are our systems? And then where do we need to grow in relationship to that? So when we say document review, that's like, look at your staff handbook and your student handbook and your schedule. When we talk about data, we're not just talking about student academic outcomes data, but let's look at serving of your students. Let's look at your staff to student ratios when we're looking at documents, not just how many staff you have, but what's the function within the staff, do you have an attendance officer or an engagement director and developer, right? How we allocate our staff means the world to the students that we support. So are we there for compliance and to get you into trouble and to exclude you, or is our purpose to get you into our schools to feel welcome and to feel supported. And depending on that response, are we going to be accelerating learning or remediating learning. We wanna be accelerating learning. We want those opportunity gaps not to widen over time. So how do we create those systems? That self assessment will help them understand the components within those systems. And we organize those in different buckets of leadership components that they'll self assess against in tiered systems, support that they will support as well as one that relates to general areas of of competency you're hiring. I you know, is your does your workforce represent the students that they support and serve? If not, we wanna diversify our workforce so that our students feel reflected in the staff that support them as well as the professional development and coaching that we would give to them. So these are all different Eakins of sections driven by implementation science. The research on evidence based this is aligned with the with the science of of change Eakins of creates the framework for what we do. our book will walk you through that because it's a journey. Oh, it's not it's not gonna happen in 1 year.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:15:53]:

Right. Glad you said that. And okay. So in a perfect world. Let's say money and and and resources are not an issue or not a factor. Right? because we're we're Eakins very broadly right now. But let's just say, I'm in a position where I have access to resources or whatever I need. Do you recommend that we hire on an MTSS designated individual to kind to kind of oversee things because as a school leader, maybe I got principal stuff, and then MTSS might feel like an added piece to my plate. is I mean, what are your thoughts in that realm?

Kristan Rodriguez [00:16:34]:

It depends on the size and scale of the school and of the district. whether you would need somebody Eakins of in that that kind of middle level guidance or leadership position to do that work when we we run a couple of state Academies for different departments of education, and we always make sure that central office is present on the team in building leadership in in specifically the building principle is present. We want them to understand because they are the systems changer. So you can hire somebody to be an M MTSS Eakins of development liaison director to help with implementation, but with help when it comes to the installation phase, the planning phase we do we do want those that are in charge of creating the budgets, hiring the positions to be in the forefront of that work. And when it comes to implementation, it's amazing if you can get instructional coaches and MTSS coordinators and data liaisons, interventionists of the wazoo, high doses tutors, all of those kinds of positions that, really support the tiered system are essential, but we like to begin with those core decision makers, not in isolation in collaboration with other staff, but I think that they're necessary.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:17:44]:

Okay. which leads me to the opposite question. Right? So let's just say, and then I know it all depends, but let's just say I don't have. I have limited resources. I have limited resources. Shoot. Maybe I'm I'm I'm a brand new principal, you know, and and and so even experience. might be an issue as far as limited resources. Should I go full blown MTSS? Do you recommend maybe doing, like, okay, 1st year? You should work on this piece of it. Maybe focus on tier 1, a lot more. Tier 3. Maybe when you start with tier tier 3, we focus on that more. like, what do you recommend for someone on the opposite side of that spectrum who wants to do this, and and resources is a challenge?

Kristan Rodriguez [00:18:27]:

I would say, one, when we made those systemic changes in in my district as a district leader, we actually had, potentially less resources. We had a level based budget, in some respects, a level service budget. So same amount with with increased cost insurance and things like that. And so there is a component of resource allocation that you have to take really seriously. And, again, when I talked about, you know, you you measure what you value, you know, it reflects your values, what you budget reflects your values. And so you need to become an advocate for a longer common planning time in the schedule, maybe a longer day or more half days, which is not always popular within communities because we have, you know, it's hard on parents that are working. So how do we create conditions? So we create equity within there and not overburden them, but still give time, collaborative time for our our staff to meet. So I think process of resource allocation budget is a piece of this, but it doesn't stop the momentum from happening. It's usually over in the best case scenario 5 years, I have seen. So year 1 is really just what I call exploration and installation. This is understanding, multi tiered systems and planning for the implementation of them. You do the self assessment. You do action planning. you start to embed MTSS into your budget documents, your technology plans, your school improvement plans, your district strategy, you start to make it a commitment. You start to create a communication plan for the community so that they know. Initial implementation usually around year 1 and then scaling to full implementation over the next few years. And so that doesn't mean you don't do anything in year 1 and you don't create momentum. But in terms of, like, changing systems. You know, if you're gonna change a policy, you need the school board or school committee to approve that. That cannot be something you do easily. So you have to invest the time to create the rationale for the change, provide the data and evidence for why the change needs to occur, create scaffled up an example of a policy change language and then support that policy, shift upon approval. So once it's approved, how do we implement that policy through our procedures as leaders? So it is time consuming. I like to give ourselves time to to to start slow to go fast. Right? So we don't jump in to a brand new schedule without thinking about the implications of that schedule. So a lot of schools, I'll give you an example they jump to what we call a what I need block, a win block, which is an implementation block embedded into the school day so that they do not get intervention. They don't get taken. We call that supplementing, not supplanting. Right? So we're we're we're not taking them out of their core. ELA block. They have their 4 cotaught ELA block, for example, or their court ELA block. Plus, they have an intervention block. A lot of principles they think about the logistics of that and they put in the, the windblock and and and Eakins shake their hands and say, I'm done. walk away. You know how hard that wind walk is to implement. It's extremely hard to implement. And so what happens is they don't put the if we if we do not put the the work into supporting implementation, it falls apart and then it goes away at a complaint. Right? And so the work on, on what I call installation planning is not just to redo your schedule. is to think about what kind of supports do staff need to do to use to do to know what to do in that small group instructional block. How do we have time for them to prepare? What kind of coaching models? What kind of materials and resources are we going to use? I separate to your actually into tier 2 a and tier 2 B. So tier 2 a is what I would consider a teacher in a wind block using their horns materials, maybe just doing some small group instruction. Mhmm. whereas a tier 2b would be maybe an interventionist working with a student also could be during the wind block, but they might be, basing that on specific skills and strategies that, are in pursuit of those grade level standards. And so, again, thinking about the schedule and the win block, we have to staff it so we have all levels for those tiers. That takes a tremendous amount of planning. So jumping right in usually doesn't end well. But -- Yeah.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:22:44]:

Gotcha. Okay. Okay. Jumping right in doesn't end well. So the the it's process, you you estimate about 5 years, of course, depends on the situation, those Eakins of things, to to have a situation that is MTSS with fidelity, and it's equitable for all. Not most.

Kristan Rodriguez [00:23:02]:

For all students. You got it.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:23:05]:

Okay. So if if anytime we're come talking about change, let's just say we're talking about history of a school that has not had a multi tier system RTI or any of those Eakins of things. you're gonna get resistance. How what kind of suggestions do you have when it comes to getting staff buy in to this this change of process.

Kristan Rodriguez [00:23:26]:

One of my favorite questions because, actually, I think as leaders, we make it and reminds more difficult than it needs to be. And so we're gonna have resistance to change no matter what. Even if it worked, they're gonna resist change, and maybe sometimes because some some some things we're working with some kids they don't wanna change it because they're afraid for those Eakins. It's not gonna work anymore. Right? So no matter what, we're gonna have resistance. Here's my advice. I've used it in my practice. I've used it in my coaching, and it seems to work, which is for that 1st year, the year of implementation do not invite the resistors in yet. Just don't invite them in yet. Get the people who are either on board with the idea automatically or are swing votes that through concentrated support, they see the necessity for this change, and they're all in. And the reason I don't only want people that are all all about change is that most of the staff are gonna be resident about jumping in with them because they know that they just jump in for everything. So you wanna get some of that swing vote in there and you wanna get them on your side and you want them to implement it and then let them shine given the supports they need to be successful within whatever that area of support that you're doing, whether it be universal design or whether it be the adoption of a high quality instructional set up high quality instructional materials, whether it be database decision Eakins, let them be successful in that and share and showcase that and you will get that that that buy in from the rest of the staff. At the end, you will know that there's a time when the tide has changed and more people are on board. And those people that will always resist really don't have an option anymore because that's just the we're 3, 4 years in. It's embedded into educator evaluation framework. These are our expectations for it. They've seen the success. and that's really what you wanna do is is find people in that early adopters and that swing vote and support the heck out of them so they're successful so that people see the value in the work that we're doing in my experience has been you'll never get everybody voluntarily, but you change the wave. And at the end, it's not an option to implement these evidence based strategies. It's an expectation. I would say probably year 3, you sprinkle in a couple of resistors, get them on board, year 4, a couple more, and then in those holdouts, you have to wait to the 5th year. You'll never necessarily convince them. to make the change, but the school is in that direction. And in that way, I think it works where I think people bring in the resistors too early they become so negative. They they they Eakins of bring down the early implementers and can kind of sometimes halt momentum a little

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:26:16]:

So just unclear, is this are are we saying that year 1, for example, we're not talking to we're we're not mentioning or or, like, I I just wanna make sure I'm clear as far as -- So the exploration phase is everybody

Kristan Rodriguez [00:26:32]:

gets to learn about that together. So the whole school, you'll do whole school wide, professional learning around MTSS. You'll do, whole school wide around trauma informed practice. You're gonna versal design for learning. Everybody understands this is where we're going. They participate in the needs assessments, their participating in the surveys and the focus groups. They're telling you what's working and what's not, and we honor that. And if it aligns with student outcomes and the other points. We don't touch things that are working, right, and we focus on those things that are not. So they are invested and involved in the exploration phase and in the installation phase in that 1st year, which is the planning phase. We might do things like whole school faculty meetings, professional learning days, keynotes, things like that. Where we see kind of impact in student outcomes is about 47 to 50 hours in any one given year of really specific professional development to change our practices and that's when we see some outcomes shift in our students. The people that are getting that level, you you wanna give them a little bit more love. You wanna give them a little bit opportunity attention, scaffolded coaching, that doesn't mean that you're not integrating concepts of universal design into faculty meetings or planning sessions or professional development days, but that robust, intense professional development you'd wanna chunk those 1st couple of years if you if you can. Things that are practices that are harmful to our students. We don't wait. We change those things immediately. There might be policies and procedures that need to be shifted immediately. But in terms of these big system wide levers and how long it tigs. We're slow moving schools. We know, we're part of it. We love it, but it takes a while to change. Those we would expect over time.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:28:24]:

Gotcha. Okay. Well, I I'll I'll say this, you know, Kristen, it it has truly been a pleasure. I've learned a lot within this time. And and I like I said, you've been dropping bars all all this whole conversation. So thank you for for bringing that to us. I'd love for you to share with us your, you know, maybe one final word of advice to our listeners out there. What I would say is get excited about this work think about the kids that maybe we didn't

Kristan Rodriguez [00:28:52]:

meet their needs as the motivation we need to persevere when things get challenging and tough because things will get challenging and tough. The end outcome will be worth it. So just stick with it. get a community of learners together. don't do this in isolation ever and as much as you can enjoy the experience of change.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:29:13]:

Don't do this by yourself.

Kristan Rodriguez [00:29:15]:

Okay. So don't don't we talk about burnout. You this you're asking for it. Don't do this by yourself. Make sure you have a team. I always say take the cape off. administrators. Take the cape off. Nice. Take care. You don't need to be the superhero. Yeah. You need to you need to just be one member of a team doing this

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:29:33]:

Absolutely. Get the Avengers on your side and and you there's no way you should be doing this by yourself at the end of the day. Once again, I am speaking to Doctor Kristin Rodriguez, 1 half, or co author of In support of students, a leader's guide to equitable MTSS, now available. Of course, there is a link in the show notes Christian, thank you so much for your time. Oh, wait. Thank you. I got one more question. One more question. Sorry. One more. Okay. And we got folks that want to connect with you. What's the best way to reach you online?

Kristan Rodriguez [00:30:05]:

absolutely. They can, reach me by email, which is just my first name. Kristan, k r i s t a n, at ccasincatcataasinappledashpr.com, or they can access my website www. ccadashpr.com.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:30:25]:

There it is. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you.

Keywords

Leaders, change, resistance, implementation, buy-in, mindset, evidence-based strategies, resource allocation, budgeting, common planning time, collaborative opportunities, parents, exploration, installation, self-assessment, action planning, multi-tiered system of support, MTSS, school board, schedule changes, win block, intervention block, staff support, coaching models, materials, resources, staffing, mental health, social-emotional, academic needs, universal design for learning.

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