Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:00:00]:

Welcome, advocates, to another episode of the Leading Equity Podcast, a podcast that focuses on supporting educators with the tools and resources necessary to ensure equity at their schools. Today's special guest is miss Crystal Hardy Allen, author of What Goes Unspoken, how school leaders address DEI beyond race. And that is out of Josie Bass. And, of course, the link is in the show notes, Folks, so without further ado, Crystal, thank you so much for joining us today.

Krystal Allen [00:00:29]:

Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:00:32]:

Oh, it's fun. It's It's the pleasure's mine. I'm looking forward to this conversation. I think it's really important. So, before we get into today's topic, I'd love for you to share a little bit about yourself and what currently do? Yes.

Krystal Allen [00:00:45]:

I am Crystal Hardy Allen, as you shared, and I am a New Orleans based social entrepreneur. I'm a former teacher and school principal and a native of historic Selma, Alabama. I like to tell people that I am a granddaughter of the civil rights movement, because the elders, of my community and ancestors participated in that march from Selma to Montgomery and a lot of other, organizing efforts To ensure that several of the rights that we all enjoy today are were the fruit And for a reason of it. You know? So this topic of diversity, equity, inclusion is very near and dear to my heart. I feel like it's it it runs deep in my blood. Wow.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:01:25]:

Did now Did they participate in Bloody Sunday?

Krystal Allen [00:01:28]:

No. No. My immediate relatives did not. When I say elders, you know, and ancestors in that way specific Particularly event I mean, the community because there's so many living legends. Mhmm. Right? And people who have passed away that are literally, like, Streets and minutes away that are things that sometimes others might see on a movie or a film, but to be able to have access, You know, to their stories in real time and to those people who can talk about attending the mass meetings and things of that nature Has always been, special to me, but I think the older I get, the more I recognize it's a it's a real treasure.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:02:09]:

Okay. Okay. I was like, we're gonna go a whole another direction. And that conversation, I was like, let's scratch the other topic. Okay. Alright. So alright. Alright.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:02:19]:

Alright. So seriously, here here's the question I wanna the topic that I want to talk about with you. You know, you and I both do d DI work. And and and it's important to us, but sometimes we get into spaces where a lot of the conversations that come up you know? You hear a lot of facilitators saying black and brown a lot, and you hear, BIPOC a lot. You know, some of these terms that come up, you know, racial type of conversations when it comes to DEI work. And so, naturally, there seems to be a stigma, if you will, where DEI is limited to race. Yeah. Maybe you've been in a situation where comments have been made or even questioned.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:02:57]:

Why do we need to participate in this? We don't have a lot of x amount of students in our class or staff in our in our program or our employees or whatever it is, what is typical what is your typical response in these type of situations?

Krystal Allen [00:03:13]:

Yeah. So number 1, I think it's important for folks to understand that diversity, equity, and inclusion is deeper than race. We often use the term diversity as a synonym for race. Mhmm. And race is one type of diversity, one type of inclusion, one type of equity. But, really, when we're talking about that body of work, we're talking about the gambit of lived experiences, identities, Perspectives and backgrounds. And I think because of that, it's important to talk about racism, but to also, talk about and deconstruct sexism

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:03:49]:

Mhmm.

Krystal Allen [00:03:49]:

Homophobia, classism, colorism, ableism, Xenophobia and so many other things. And so for the person who even hears DEI as an acronym and things Like, that's not for me. And let's say they happen to be a person of color. They happen to identify as, you know, Latino or black, indigenous, etcetera, And think, this is not for me. What can I learn? I, you know, push them to to say, just because I too am a person of color Doesn't mean that I am incapable of perpetuating a form of an ism. Right? Perpetuating Some form of discrimination, some form of oppression, or some form of harm. So there are African American men, for instance, who can still be sexist. There are women who can perpetuate sex practices And workplace environments even though it's a woman to another woman.

Krystal Allen [00:04:44]:

Right? There can be people of color who look down at other people of color because they are too darker Skinned in terms of their complexion, and all of that is problematic. So I think that it's super important for folks to understand. It's not a matter of whether DEI is for you or not. It's a matter of understanding and being cognizant of what are you already intentional about That you can be affirmed as a practice that really does advance equity already, advance inclusion or diversity. But conversely, it's a question of where do you have blind spots? Where are you not intentional? Where do you need to raise your awareness And become an ally. Right? Where do you need to move more differently in order to advance and not perpetuate even unconsciously Any form of harm to someone else. So it's it's it's pushing people to understand that freedom, Justice and liberation are things that we all deserve. Not just 1 group, But every single group.

Krystal Allen [00:05:50]:

And so even when you look at, for instance, the Black Lives Matters movement and you think about people saying, well, what about black trans lives? Right?

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:05:59]:

Mhmm. Mhmm.

Krystal Allen [00:05:59]:

And are we advancing the rights, the freedom, Things that other folks get to enjoy, that's a whole conversation to have. It's a conversation within a conversation. So, again, DEI is for us all. The The question is, what do you have to unpack and unlearn, which might be different than what the next person is unpacking and unlearning.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:06:21]:

I can't tell you How many times I've gotten emails where individuals will either say something like, oh, well, you know, you're always advocating for black folks. Right? Because I I and I'll and I I will say this all the time. I am I'm black, and I'm not and I'm biased towards what my my black community, and and I'm not a I don't apologize for that. Mhmm. Mhmm. That that's the work that I tend to to lean towards more. And so I'll get emails, and they'll say, you know, oh, you know, here we go again. Another something on black folks.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:06:55]:

But what about our deaf and hard of hearing? Or or what about our LGBTQ? Or or how dare you mention LGBTQ, because they don't advocate for us. Yep. I always respond with its simple words. You act like Black people can't be deaf and hard of hearing.

Krystal Allen [00:07:14]:

Yeah.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:07:14]:

Black black people can't be LGBT plus. Right? Is intersectional when it comes to this type of work. Here's something I wanted to to ask you because Maybe this has been your experience, but for me as well, I have a lot of folks that let's say, a lot of my white colleagues will say, well, My role when it comes to DEI work is I'm supposed to be an ally. You know? I just I I Mhmm. Ally is always the word it is. You know, I I wanna be supportive of of my my my colleagues, my peers. And then on the other side, a lot of my friends of color will say, well, I already know this is my lived experience. I I know this stuff already.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:07:55]:

I don't need any there you know, I'm here because I need to be here, but I already know everything there is to know. So when you have a a mixture when you have a mixture of, like, a a melting pot, if you will, of audiences and various experiences and mindsets. What is typical as far as your strategy when it comes to, let's say, a session or or doing this work or however however you're formatted. Yeah. What is kind of your your typical approach to make sure you're reaching those folks who had a mindset of all I need to be is an ally, and the other side of folks that just feel like, oh, I I already know this already.

Krystal Allen [00:08:31]:

I think that emotional intelligence is so important in the work of DEI practitioners, and leaders, especially those who Are committed to building the capacity of other people in the work. I think that it is important to really discern And collect as much quantitative and or qualitative, you know, data, in the moment and beforehand about where People are on the continuum of 2 things. Actually, a continuum of 3 things, I would say. The continuum of their current knowledge. Right. You know, from having no knowledge of DEI concepts, constructs, the work, all the way to being a person who considers themselves a subject matter expert. I think there's a different continuum, though, that separates knowledge from action. Because we see a lot of people with, especially in the academy And and connect it to intellectual circles that know all the terms.

Krystal Allen [00:09:30]:

Mhmm. They know the dates. They know the pedagogy. They know that. But then when we start examining their ability to execute and implement what they know, there's a distance. And so I think that It was a different continuum for action. And I also think that there's a different continuum for humility and the commitment to being a lifelong learner. And I separate all of those because I think it's possible, like I said, to know a lot, not take any action.

Krystal Allen [00:09:56]:

But then the ego also Restricts you from wanting to be open to learn and to recognize that what you knew yesterday and what you did yesterday Could actually be problematic in this new current moment. So it's not resting on your laurels, but it's it's constantly giving yourself permission to live also in cognitive dissonance. Like, I gotta sit with this thing. Like, something doesn't feel quite right. And I think that also pushes people to get out of this thinking that I have no racist bone in my body Yeah. Or I can't be sexist. I can't enable any sexism because I'm a woman, and all this stuff is Actually, both 2 things can be true at the same time. You can be a woman and be a problematic barrier to other women.

Krystal Allen [00:10:41]:

Right. And it

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:10:41]:

was woah. Woah. Woah. Woah. Woah. Woah. Woah. Hold on.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:10:43]:

Hold on. Say that one more time. Say that to I don't think they heard you. Could can you say it again, Chris?

Krystal Allen [00:10:48]:

Yeah. You could be a woman. Uh-huh. You can also be a problematic barrier to other women. Just like this idea that From a racial standpoint, the the biggest issue in our workplace could be from a white coworker, colleague, manager, supervisor, leader, to a person of color. Sometimes it can be a person that looks like you

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:11:08]:

Mhmm.

Krystal Allen [00:11:09]:

That is not committed to advancing an agenda that is for you before you're good. And so I think

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:11:16]:

All skin folk can't be what is it? All skin folk and kinfolk?

Krystal Allen [00:11:19]:

To kinfolk.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:11:20]:

Uh-huh.

Krystal Allen [00:11:21]:

Yeah. And so I think all of that said for DI leaders who are consultants, trainers, etcetera, It's really important to know who's in the room and where are peep and how do you if you don't know that information, how do you speak to a blended audience? Yeah. How do you share a point, but break that point down in multiple ways to say, if you're new to this, here's what I want you to take away. At which when I think about diversity alone is a concept. Right? People who are brand new to diversity, I help them understand what diversity is. Mhmm. They're thinking about this entire social wheel of possibilities. And I also encourage them to think about their own socialization, how they were conditioned, etcetera, to really be mindful of, like, what is already at the forefront of your mind? What biases do you hold and carry, etcetera, right, Versus a person who's in the middle, you know, I consider to be a person.

Krystal Allen [00:12:17]:

They know the terminology, the at a baseline level. They have a working understanding of all these things, but they sometimes have not put it into action. They haven't moved to a stage of action accountability. And so the conversation there is not like, do you know what diversity is? It's how are you centering it in talent acquisition in your organization? Where do we see it within your onboarding and your orientation and the way that you live out your core values As a school, as a nonprofit, as a business, someone else might be at a place where, yeah, you put programming and initiatives in action, But the thing we're trying to figure out now is how do we conduct a deep and thorough audit of your current state? What are the wins? What are the strengths? What were the greatest threats in your DEI work? How do we forecast and create a long term strategic plan For your DEI efforts and commitment so that it is not a fledging set of initiatives and programming that are Contingent on 1 person. And if they leave, then so does all the BI programming. So how do when we talk about the success of the organization in the long term, DI is is a is an automatic part of the ingredient and the formula for how we move from good to great.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:13:39]:

You are dropping bars. But that's a big deal. Right? Because okay. I I see it all the time. You know? Principal reach out to me and they say, hey, Shutter, we we wanna you know, it's like we sign a 3 year or something, and then they leave after 1 year or 2 years or something like that. And then it's like, who's gonna carry the torch? Yeah. I love how you say, rather than focusing on 1 person, small team, if you will, doing this work is important that it's embedded. It's it's automatic like you said.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:14:14]:

Automatic within the culture, within the structure of what we're doing, but it does take some self awareness and identification. Like, let's do this audit to find out where we're at, and then we can put a plan together. Like you said, short term, you know, wins, opportunities, things that we can do to to to move forward. I mean, what you're saying to me is so powerful, and it's almost almost like I I don't wanna Don't take this the wrong way.

Krystal Allen [00:14:43]:

Mhmm.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:14:44]:

It's not it it's almost like it should be common sense. It should be, like, something that we should be just doing. Yeah. But, unfortunately, as oft DEI often is looked at as an add on.

Krystal Allen [00:14:54]:

It is looked at as an as an add on.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:14:57]:

And so, How do we shift from DEI being a separate thing and looked at as, oh, here's another thing that we need to be doing to a culture of it's automatic.

Krystal Allen [00:15:07]:

There's actually a sense of altruism and just, like, collective identity that is So needed, but so opposite than our national culture of and individualism that it really is a work of of deeper inner work, Really? Like, intrapersonal work, at the individual level and intrapersonal work in terms of the organization looking Open this in the mirror and saying, to what extent do I not just care that I'm okay, but that others are okay? So I am respected in a conversation and people don't interject and cut me off, but I notice that women in the organization don't get the same treatment Or folks of color or whoever. I actually have to care enough to say she deserves to be heard too when she talks. And that's a different way of moving and being that is others minded. Because what happens is that People get so fixated on what do I have. Right? And sometimes resistance to equity work is also coming because people feel like guess it's gonna take something away from them. Know the is that the privileges that you have enjoyed for so long, other people want access to that too. So the work is not about loss for you. It's about distribution of what you have so that other people can enjoy the same liberties And freedom.

Krystal Allen [00:16:41]:

And so it there's there's a a sense of, like, hoarding there too And being very infatuated with yourself being good. Right? Your group being taken care of At the expense of apathy for others. And I think that's just I mean, eve even with marginalized groups, Oppression is real and is deep. Yeah. And yet it is possible to still care about what happens to Other people who are going through other marginalized experiences. If we're not careful, we'll put weight and value on Whose marginalization is more important than the others.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:17:22]:

I hate that. That's like the worst the who's had it worst conversation.

Krystal Allen [00:17:27]:

Yeah.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:17:28]:

I I I struggle with that. Here locally, we had a, had a a a good guy. He was a really good guy. He was running a diversity center out here. And and one of the things he said to me, I didn't I didn't really know how to feel at the time, because I I I was rolling with him. Like, I I I knew what he was saying, I don't know if he just articulated it in a way that just kinda, like, I don't know. But, basically, what he said was, like, you know, they wanted to run, like, a multicultural event. You know? Yep.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:17:56]:

Something in the community. And he was like, well, you know, this is Idaho, and, you know, we already have, you know Idaho was 0.8% black people for the state for the state. Right? And so This thing was and he's a black guy, and he was like, his thing is we're gonna get lost in this multicultural this multicultural event because there's Way more Hispanics. There's way more, you know, all all these other different cultures, and we're just a handful. And so he's like, I don't want to do a multicultural event. I wanna do a black event, Hispanic event, and this event, and this event instead. Yep. I saw where he was coming from.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:18:36]:

I knew what I knew what he was saying, but it really made me ponder about that approach. And I know people had differences of opinions of those type of activities. Like, if we do this one Big event is gonna be groups that are gonna feel left out within that. Curious, Crystal. I mean, what what is your take on on those type of events? Like, do you think we should just do, like, okay, this is for your group, this is for your group, or are you with, let's just do 1 multicultural type of event?

Krystal Allen [00:19:06]:

I think that there are some instances where the thing that we need to be centering isn't a a group exclusively. And sometimes people will go the route Of making the issue about something else as a scapegoat to not want to address what is the biggest elephant in the room Okay.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:19:21]:

In that

Krystal Allen [00:19:21]:

context. Right? So for instance, there are some organizations that have some deep racial issues. I mean, deep. And they will instead focus on LGBTQ Plus rights, they'll focus on this, this, this. They wanna focus on everything but race. And it's a thing that they actually need to focus on, and it's where it need to go deep and where it need to start. Also because race intersects everything.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:19:43]:

Right.

Krystal Allen [00:19:44]:

So when we look at the trans experience, the people who have the worst trans experiences are trans folks of color.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:19:50]:

Mhmm.

Krystal Allen [00:19:51]:

Right? We look at queer, folks in general. We look at hate crimes, violence, everything against LGBTQ plus community members. It's black folk within that that have the worst experiences. Right. Because at the end of the day, when I look at all my different identities, I can be white. I can be male, and I can be gay. And at the same time, in the America and the world that we live in, there are aspects of your white privilege That will save you in scenarios that a black gay man will not be saved by. And that's the nuance of the conversation and the analysis that has to be had.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:20:30]:

Yeah. I I had a coworker that that was a a white woman, and, we got into a conversation, and her her thing was, you know, I grew up poor. I grew up in a trailer park. I know I know what it's like. And I say, what if there is a black person that grew up poor in a trailer park? You tell them y'all still gonna be on the same level when it comes to a job interview?

Krystal Allen [00:20:50]:

Mhmm.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:20:51]:

Is is Juan Juan Rodriguez gonna show up to to to the to this job interview the same with the same advantage or or this on an equal playing field? And your name is Mary Jane Mary Williams or something like that? Like, And Those little things that you don't necessarily consider, but just and I get it. I'm like, that's a classism count conversation. Mhmm. Right? That that's not the same thing. But, again, classism as just like you just said, Crystal, all these things extend race race is embedded in all of that.

Krystal Allen [00:21:23]:

Yeah.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:21:24]:

Well, I'm glad you brought these points up.

Krystal Allen [00:21:26]:

There is no quick fix.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:21:28]:

Mhmm.

Krystal Allen [00:21:29]:

Right? The answer is also, not always black Or whites Yeah.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:21:34]:

Yeah.

Krystal Allen [00:21:34]:

But often lives in the gray.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:21:36]:

I like that.

Krystal Allen [00:21:37]:

It is work that is not often accompanied with a Concrete finish line.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:21:44]:

Mhmm.

Krystal Allen [00:21:45]:

It's lifelong work. It is work that is both technical and adaptive. And so people who want to make it super technical only about, like, this policy, that's fine, but we also have to talk about mindsets, beliefs, And everything in between the intrapersonal work.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:22:01]:

Yes.

Krystal Allen [00:22:02]:

So it is definitely work that that keeps you on your piece of shit.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:22:06]:

Yep.

Krystal Allen [00:22:07]:

It never gets stale. It never gets boring. I'm I'm grateful to even be in this moment talking to you about it Because I think things come full circle so much, and I had a lot of traumatic Workplace experiences, advocating for the things that over time became popular In the DEI world. Right? But I came up at a time professionally where it cost me to talk about those things, To push and advocate for those things. Right? I would encourage everyone doing this work to not jump on the work because it's trendy, but jump on the work because It's the right thing to do, and you wanna be on the right side of history.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:22:55]:

Hey. Hey. Okay. I think the overarching thing that I'm hearing in today's conversation because you've you haven't said it, but you said it is don't be performative in your effort.

Krystal Allen [00:23:08]:

That's right. That's right. That's right.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:23:10]:

That that that that that sums everything up.

Krystal Allen [00:23:12]:

I'll be performative. Yeah.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:23:15]:

I I I moved away from the term firm, ally. And I and I talk about in my book, is I'm no longer an ally because is ally can't be, it it can't be a descriptor. A lot of people will describe themselves as an ally, and it needs to be an actional actionable you know, it needs to be avert. And so I've I've moved away from utilizing the term ally, and I've moved towards a disruptor. Because when you hear the word disruptor, that signifies you're you're changing something or you're you're seeking to change something. Yeah. But I think Ally has, like, kinda what you mentioned, like, there's a lot of buzzwords nowadays that are are very safe, were acceptable in spaces. And so when we're so focused on how other people are gonna feel, and not hurt the feelings and all these kind of things.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:24:01]:

And we're not will like, you can be like you said, you you've been spitting game. K? You've been dropping bars. Basically saying, you know, look. You could know all the stuff. You could be learned. You could know everything. Read all the latest books. But there's no action.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:24:18]:

Yep. Just performative.

Krystal Allen [00:24:19]:

And sometimes you can cause even more harm to because you give the illusion of hope. Mhmm. Those around you.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:24:27]:

Allusion of hope. Yeah.

Krystal Allen [00:24:28]:

Yeah. And because, you know, when hope is Manifest it. People are more vulnerable.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:24:35]:

Mhmm.

Krystal Allen [00:24:35]:

They're trusting. They're more open. It's hard to be harmed, To be let down, etcetera, you know, because you can become a little callous. Like Mhmm. Resentment, Can foster, I mean, all types of things, and it can really regress any meaningful progress. It can take a while for people to open back up again.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:24:58]:

There you go.

Krystal Allen [00:24:59]:

You think about that from a lens of sociology, we've seen that happen not only politically, But in the story of leadership in general, we've seen people do Not so good things in those seats historically, and it takes a lot of trust building And restoration to happen at a collective and community level for people to be open again to trust. Like, on the political side, sometimes apathy and voting is a result of hopes I had, and I've been let down. Yep. People only take so much wrongdoing and trauma. You know? And so it's interesting because nowadays we hear the term quiet Quitting.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:25:50]:

But I

Krystal Allen [00:25:50]:

think that there's something to be said about people not understanding the the organizational case for DEI to Being a driver of productivity, being a driver of results, performance, outcomes, all of those things. Because When people feel seen, valued, heard, and appreciated, they show up differently.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:26:10]:

There you go.

Krystal Allen [00:26:10]:

It's more. They're more invested. They wanna see The organization thrive, and they will have your back when they believe and they've seen that you have theirs. Leaders may feel afraid at times to take a stance to do hard things, But you have to realize what you want your legacy to be as a leader. How do you wanna be remembered? I think those of you who are listening that are just mission driven, you have to really think about how your work has really Impacted the world in a positive way. And when you think with the end in mind, I think it allows you to make different choices About how you show up here now and today.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:27:00]:

Whew. Well, I I I I will say that's

Krystal Allen [00:27:03]:

It's like Oprah's it's like Oprah's, Soul circle. We've had old conversation we've had today.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:27:08]:

I I I love these kind of conversations that, you know, like I mentioned before, we even hit record like that. Look. I don't send questions ahead of time. I just we just talk, and we just have a conversation. And tell me what's on your mind. So I I I've learned a lot from you today, Crystal, and I definitely consider you as providing a voice in leading equity. Love for you to take us home with any final words of advice that you wanna provide to our listeners.

Krystal Allen [00:27:32]:

One, I want them to be mindful of your book. If they have not already purchased your book, Do so. And also as a companion to that, I would encourage them to check out my book, What Goes Unspoken. It's available in the same sources, Amazon, Books A Million, Barnes and Noble, and it's a framework for how to operationalize DEI in over 10 different domains.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:27:55]:

Yeah.

Krystal Allen [00:27:56]:

Marketing and branding, community engagement, finance, HR, all the things. Right? We move from theory to Practice, what does it look like?

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:28:06]:

Barnes and nobles. I I remember there's some meme I some some real I saw that. Anyway, Folks, there'll be a link in the show notes. Crystal, if there's some folks that wanna reach out to you, what's the best way to connect with you online?

Krystal Allen [00:28:19]:

K.allendot Consulting. And that is across all platforms. So Facebook, Instagram, our website is k allenconsulting.org. My personal page is Crystal h Allen.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:28:36]:

Alright. Again, links in the show notes, folks. Crystal, it's truly truly been a pleasure, author of What Goes Unspoken, How School Leaders Address DEI Beyond Race. Thank you so much for your time.

Krystal Allen [00:28:48]:

Thank you for having me. Really appreciate you.

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