Sheldon [00:00:00]:

Welcome, advocates, to another episode of the Leading Equity podcast, a podcast that focuses on supporting educators with the tools and resources necessary to ensure equity at their schools. Today's special guest is doctor Lesley Ann Noel, author of Design Social Change, take action, work toward equity, and challenge the status quo. So without further ado, Lesley Ann, thank you so much for joining us today.

Lesley-Ann [00:00:26]:

Thank you so much for this invitation, Sheldon.

Sheldon [00:00:29]:

Oh, the pleasure is mine. I'm excited about today's topic. We're gonna be talking about emotional intelligence. Specifically, I'm gonna be talking about anger as one of those emotions that we want to be intelligent about. But before we get into that topic, I'd love for you to share a little bit about yourself and what you currently do.

Lesley-Ann [00:00:48]:

So My name is Leslie, Leslie Ann Noel, and I'm an assistant professor in design or design studies at North Carolina State University. And so people ask, what is design studies? It's a place where we get kinda meta and philosophical about design. And we ask big questions like, who Designs. Why do we design? What does design look like when we take it out into other disciplines? So this is really a lot of what my work is about, and I've Been working at the intersection of design and education and social innovation for a little while, maybe about 5 to 6 years, And I'm excited to be here.

Sheldon [00:01:25]:

Alright. Well, let's get into it because, like I said, we're talking about emotional intelligence. And and I I remember my teaching days, and If I had a student that was angry and you just you know, you saw it in their face, maybe their actions were a certain way. And and it makes things a little difficult in the classroom when it comes to having even if you got multiple students that are that clearly are anger angry and and things like that. And and so You have a different take when it comes to responding or reacting to students that are angry. I'd love to get your take on that. So so open up About what are your thoughts on that?

Lesley-Ann [00:02:00]:

I've been embracing anger for a little while because I I've learned to Read anger in a different way. You know, I'm a designer, so I've realized that anger For me as a designer and as an educator becomes a point for changing something. You know? So when somebody is disengaged, I might not be able to pick up on what needs to change. But when people are angry and I know that they're angry, then I can read a little bit better the Things that need to be changed. And it could be, so I work actually a lot in social innovation, and that is, sometimes with cities or, you know, public Design projects. If I'm dealing with angry residents, that clearly feeds me need some information as a designer. You know? Like, here's something that has to change. If I'm in a classroom, because I do teach, And I'm dealing with students who are a little bit more angry or passionate about it about something.

Lesley-Ann [00:03:01]:

It could be telling me that this is a topic that we need to explore more. It could be telling me that this was an experience within a classroom that that students was not satisfied with. And, therefore, as the designer At Ukita, I have to figure out how do I make this experience better. But the the whole thing is that anger means that we have to do something. Right? The the same way joy also means that we have to do something. So in my design work, I've learned to read Anger, joy, frustration, surprise. I've I've tried to figure out how to read these emotions better and how to make them affect the work that I'm doing.

Sheldon [00:03:42]:

Okay. Well, I mean, there's a lot of us that and and I when I say us, I I I'm including myself in this is, you know, conflict resolution. And, you know, sometimes if I see a student as angry, especially if they're angry at me, you know, sometimes that puts me in a certain place. And and, again, I I I'm all about relationships, and I wanna make sure that our relationship is important. Walk me through maybe some steps as if I'm a teacher who's has, you know, let's say again, relationships are important, and we have a student that's angry at us, maybe they're yelling at us. What are some of the things that you can take from those experiences and help my my teachers out in these type of situations?

Lesley-Ann [00:04:23]:

Well, I probably can't help with all situations, you know, because there is anger and there is anger, obviously. But one thing I've found is that people who are angry want to be heard.

Sheldon [00:04:33]:

Mhmm.

Lesley-Ann [00:04:34]:

So, you know, whether it is a bit creating spaces for them to be able to talk directly to us about what the issue is, whether there are other ways to get them to document whatever, they're feeling. You know? Maybe they don't wanna talk to us, but they're willing to document it in some other way. You know? They're willing to journal. Sometimes I have students who are angry about issues, and they're willing to share in a journal or reflective exercise why they're so angry. Fortunately, I've had fewer students directly angry at me. It's really then about creating space for that anger and being able to act on it. You know, actually, I share something that I got from a mentor a long time ago. I'm sometimes very angry, and this man looked at me and he said, okay.

Lesley-Ann [00:05:26]:

I know you're angry, But take that anger and do something with it. That has been the best advice that I ever received in my professional life, And that's the advice that I've been giving people who are angry as well. You know? You are very angry, but what can we do about this I'm going I teach a class called contemporary issues, which is like a social studies class. So sometimes students are angry about public issues. So I'm like, okay. We're angry. Let's sit down and write a letter to somebody. Let's I'm in a design school, so it's let's make posters To get people who are also passionate about this issue to work with us.

Lesley-Ann [00:06:06]:

You know? The the idea is don't just let that angry energy Go away sometimes. You know? There is a way that we can harness that angry energy and do something about it. You know? So, you know, sometimes I want people to drill down a lot more into what is the thing that is making you angry, and then what's the thing we could do next. Sometimes in group work, for example, at school, people might be angry because they think their team is ignoring them. So, you know, 1 question to ask could be something like, what is the difference that you want to bring to your team that they're not listening to? You know, so that we could kinda depersonalize the issue, but we could get them to talk about what is the information that they wanna bring to the team, And can we isolate that information? And then can we somehow change the strategy so that different people in the team can bring their expertise in a different times? I guess the big message is to not be afraid of emotions. Generally, we embrace positive emotions, And we shy away from negative emotions, but, actually, the negative emotions still give us a lot of information that we have to figure out how to harness, you know, in many different ways depending on the level that people are teaching at. These days, I really teach in public situations, and I teach university students. So, of course, the way that I deal with Student anger or stakeholder anger is gonna be different to the way that someone in elementary school is gonna deal with it.

Lesley-Ann [00:07:45]:

But it's that we really can't just suppress the anger. We have to make space for it. Because I think with a design mind, after we get people to clearly say what is the thing that is angering us or angering them, then Then we could try to figure out from a design point point of view what's the design action that will make them less angry. You know? Or how can we fix the issue that is making people angry. So anger is actually the fuel to do more, And we don't have to run away from it. We we can use that fuel and energy to grow and do other things.

Sheldon [00:08:23]:

Okay. You know, I I'm glad that you you've mentioned it this way. Because initially, I'll be honest, when we first you know, before we even hit record, We when I was thinking about anger, I was thinking about, okay, what if a kid is angry at me or they're angry at their peer, classmates, or another teacher or staff, something like that. But what I'm hearing is is a lot of that social change, and and that's that's what I'm assuming your book is about. Right? Because when we think about how I watched the news, and, matter of fact, I was on TikTok the other day. And I'm watching some of the reels, and I saw an ad someone in their reel posted, I'll just say an organization that has supported the conflict that's happening, you know, between Palestine and Israel. And, there was a lot of angry or angry, I guess, people that would I I jumped right into the comments. I always do it.

Sheldon [00:09:14]:

I jump right into the comments, and I see, what what are folks saying? And it was like, you know, we're supposed to be boycotting them and things like that. So that's to me kind of made me think about your response. Like, okay. So I'm angry at, you know, you're supporting this cause or you're you're fun you're funding this organization or you're doing this, you're doing that. I'm angry. What is something I could do about it? Oh, maybe I can boycott or maybe, like you mentioned, I can write a letter. So those are some of the things that I'm hearing in your responses as far as we're upset. I mean, what are your thoughts on that? Is is am I in the right direction?

Lesley-Ann [00:09:49]:

Yes. Yeah. That is a perfect direction because the book is about making Social change.

Sheldon [00:09:54]:

Mhmm.

Lesley-Ann [00:09:55]:

And people sometimes aren't sure where change is needed. Right. And that anger then becomes Sometimes a spotlight on change that is needed. You know? And then that anger can tell us, well, what is the action that has to happen as well? So, yes, You are right. It is about it's not like our interpersonal anger. It is anger about The world and the situation and the yeah. Yes. Yes.

Sheldon [00:10:22]:

Okay. So then so then my next question is, is this something that our history teachers, our social sciences or it may be English folks? Or is this is this broad enough to where if I teach science or if I teach PE, I can harness those same type of social change concepts, or is there maybe a specific demographic that really should promote more of the social change?

Lesley-Ann [00:10:43]:

I don't See social change being only dictated by social studies teachers. Gotcha. Right? So I wanna say that everybody can harness this anger. I think that people can harness some of these angry questions in disciplines where it's less expected, but maybe those people have a really special Skill. I think that everybody has a bit of a responsibility to change the world. It's not only because you have, humanities PhD that we we can change the world. I think everybody has some responsibility to See things that are wrong and then figure out what is the action we need to take next. And those conversations can happen anywhere.

Lesley-Ann [00:11:27]:

Like, I Could definitely imagine people in PE

Sheldon [00:11:31]:

Mhmm.

Lesley-Ann [00:11:31]:

Complaining about I just thought of sexism and uniforms or something like that or, You know, and and take a space that doesn't seem like a space for social change, but see an issue in that space and then decide they're gonna make change about it. Right? Or even if we're, like, in science or math and we look at underrepresentation In those fields, again, I can see people in those fields becoming angry because there aren't enough People in this field who look like me. And then the question is, can they take that anger and do something about it? So What they do about it might be that, oh, they form an organization for people who look like them, whatever that is. And that's them taking that anger to make some change in the field that they are. So so I I don't think it's only limited to specific fields. I think it's for everybody.

Sheldon [00:12:26]:

I'm I'm glad because I I know so I know my audience. They'll some of my folks will tune out. Oh, yeah. You know, that's from a history, though. That I'm a science teacher. I had nothing. I'm a PE teacher. I had music DJ, I but I I can think of, like, I mean, off the top of my head, I remember there was a story not too long ago where there was this wrestler who had to cut his locks off in order to compete in his wrestling match.

Sheldon [00:12:47]:

You know, that was the rule for the you know, their their hair only could be so long. And I think to me, if you could show something like that to your students, especially if you have a wrestling team or something like that, you could show this to the students, like, this is This is what this young boy had to do in order to compete. His hair has nothing to do with his ability to wrestle. However, he was forced to cut his hair. How does this make you feel? What are some things that we could do in order to keep you know, what what do you think should have happened or should happen going forward so so that these type of situations don't happen so he's not humiliated in front of everybody and has to cut his hair. I mean, who knows how long he's been growing his hair? There's all these things that are attached to his identity that has been put into question just for some rules that should not have had you You know, I just feel like these are opportunities for us to discuss, and so I'm really glad that we're expanding this because sometimes, again, my humanity folks will be all about this life, but then some of my other folks will be like, well, you know, that doesn't apply. There's, you know, equations. What can I do with math and equations? How can I have social justice in that sense? But I always talk about, well, gentrification, there's numbers there.

Sheldon [00:13:55]:

You know, you got a, a prominent business is trying to, you know, tear down these, these these projects, and it's gonna cost this amount this amount of money. And and, like, you can solve all kind of equations and math problems, and what's what's this you know, there's so much that we can do. It might take us a little bit of extra work in order to get those things done. However, I think they're very important because they're relevant to a lot of our kids, a lot of their neighborhoods.

Lesley-Ann [00:14:23]:

Yes. Yes. We can bring social justice education into every field. I went into an architecture studio architecture class the other day, And, they were talking about the the history of racism in a certain neighborhood and how would that affect the design that they do today. I mean, you might think, okay. An architecture class, they can't talk about racism. But, yes, you can. And then you can use that conversation to fuel Future work that you do.

Lesley-Ann [00:14:53]:

So social justice is everywhere around us, and we can bring it into the work that we do.

Sheldon [00:14:59]:

Okay. Now I wanna clarify something because you mentioned, you know, the the phrase, do something with that anger. How do we, I guess, how do we should we sit we set some boundaries with that statement so that we don't lose our jobs or or get ourselves in trouble for making that statement? Because I know we wanna empower our students. What are your thoughts on how how do we Use utilize a phrase like that, and then, I guess, not get ourselves in trouble.

Lesley-Ann [00:15:32]:

Well, we have to watch where we say it. Right? Yeah. Mhmm. But, We can take that anger and use it at the as the fuel for positive action.

Sheldon [00:15:43]:

Okay.

Lesley-Ann [00:15:43]:

So maybe that's a better positive Yes. Yes. Not just do anything.

Sheldon [00:15:49]:

Do something with it. Yeah. By any means necessary.

Lesley-Ann [00:15:52]:

Well, in some context, but, yeah, I think it it as responsible educators, we will, of course, say that, yes, we wanna get Positive energy and positive action from that anger. So it it's important for us to not minimize people's anger Mhmm. And then figure out, you know, how can we maybe create a larger discussion around people's point of view? We might have differing points of view in the same conversation In the classroom, how can we create space for all of these differences and then take Those discussions and differences to another level and create action. So, you know, why I, as a designer, so passionate about this kind of conversation is that design is about action. Mhmm. So, you know, in the design classroom, I could start the social sciences conversation about the world and whatnot, But then we can take all the conversations we had about racism, sexism, gender discrimination. All of these issues, We can take those as a starting point and say, and we're going to design something new. Right? So we take action, And then we get feedback.

Lesley-Ann [00:17:07]:

You know? We share these designs that we've created with people, and then we ask them, hey. What do you think? How can what can we do better? It's That progressive action that I'm saying is about making social change.

Sheldon [00:17:22]:

Yeah. I'm a throw something at you. That's how I want I wanna get you I wanna I wanna get your take on this because, you know, I know a lot of my teachers or my staff, unless unless even our administrators might be like, okay. I agree with Leslie, and I I she's right. You know? Social change, anger, utilize that anger, do something with it. However, in this age, nowadays, We got parent pushback. We got community pushback. We have folks that will literally give us all kinda hard times when it comes to the social change or the action that we're talking about when it comes to design.

Sheldon [00:18:06]:

Do you have any sort of maybe responses that we can give when we get pushback for doing something with our anger.

Lesley-Ann [00:18:16]:

There's a a toolkit that I created Once, which was actually for, the people who would not be able to understand issues About things like race and you know? And may they don't under they they maybe didn't realize But I created the toolkit to communicate with them because I actually created the toolkit around anticipating Their gaps in knowledge and, you know, their misinformation. And I thought, okay. Well, let me Try to create something so that they'll understand this issue that I'm trying to to talk about. Right? And so, like, that could be one way that you're trying to deal with Yeah. Anga. You know, part of the thing is trying to figure out how where could be different places that we could be communicating with People. Yeah. And maybe we're not communicating with them in the middle of the anger.

Lesley-Ann [00:19:17]:

It's that the anger is Showing us a gap, and then we could figure out something to fill that gap.

Sheldon [00:19:26]:

Okay. I'm with you. I'm with you. Okay. So let let's let's get a little bit more specific. Alright? So, you know, in the k twelve world, you know, one one common thing that a lot of folks are are are angry about, is book banning, for example. Right? You know, certain books have been banned, because of the content within that book. And so a lot of our students, for example, might be upset and say, you know, a teacher let's say, a English Teacher, for example, might say, you know, I want to show this book.

Sheldon [00:19:57]:

I wanna read this book. However, it's been banned or there's issues, there's controversies. And so they say, okay, students. You know, we wanna push for this book. We're angry. And so they might say, okay. Here's some things that we could do. Maybe we need to write a letter to superintendent.

Sheldon [00:20:12]:

Maybe we need to do this, to your governor or whoever. Right? We need to take some social action. But then, like I said, maybe those same parents of those children that are pushing for letting us read these books are coming at you on that level. And so what would be maybe some responses that I could give as a teacher as to why I'm wanting to choose to read these books even though maybe there's some content that's questionable?

Lesley-Ann [00:20:40]:

Part of the conversation is about Simplifying sometimes the information. Very often, like, you know, the parents will be angry and have never read any of these books. Yeah. Can we simplify the content for the parents so that they understand what's the value of this book? Mhmm. They don't have to buy it, But we can you know, if we are thinking about their anger, the the parents who are trying to block ban the book, That shows us maybe a gap in knowledge on the parent's side that we could try to figure out what are we designing to deal with That gap of knowledge for the parents. So is there a way to somehow simplify this content so that the parents can understand the value of this book? Right? Yeah. If the anger is the student anger from not being allowed to read this book, Then we can design something else around that student angle and say, well, okay. Students, maybe they are the ones to communicate with their parents, or they are the ones to write to the legislators about why are you banning this book for me? But, you know, we have anger from all of these different people, And each set of anger or each angry state is gonna push us to a different type of action.

Sheldon [00:22:00]:

Mhmm.

Lesley-Ann [00:22:00]:

You know? If The anger is from our colleagues who are other teachers who are angry about this book being banned. The question could be, well, okay. Can we all come together and maybe even just create a platform where we can all You know? That sounds like a simple thing, but it it it could be that we are then creating an action against the anger for us, You know, to build our little community. But the the thing is that we can't just stop in the anger. I mean, this is me with my design, Alito. We need to design something that responds to that anger. Maybe it reacts to it. Maybe it pacifies it.

Lesley-Ann [00:22:42]:

You know? We can figure out what the strategy is. But that anger, for, again, me as a designer becomes a design lever where I could figure out, oh, Something can happen because I saw this angry point. Mhmm. And I'll say again the same thing for joy Because joy is also, a design point. So if our students are extremely joyful be because we used A different kind of book in the classroom, that also becomes a design intervention point. You know? Like, maybe we could try to figure How can we perpetuate that joyous feeling for the students throughout the entire year? You know, I'll I'll draw an example from my own Teaching experience. I saw the joy in a design classroom, And then I partnered with a colleague of mine who's a math teacher, and he said, how can we replicate the experience of the design students in the math class? And that created, like, a whole different kind of experiment that was really quite exciting. You know? The math teacher said a whole different group of Students got engaged, and everybody was joyful.

Lesley-Ann [00:23:53]:

And everybody left as an expert in the formula that they, you know, that they were bringing to the experience. So, you know, it's It's the wide range of emotions. We as educators, we as designers could try to figure out How do we read these emotions? How do we understand them? And then as designers and educators, how do we react to these emotions, whether we wanna continue them, whether we wanna pacify them, whether we wanna harness them. But, you know, what do we do next when we can read all of these emotions? Because all of these emotions are way more energizing, to use another emotion with, than the disengaged students. So it's like, how are we creating these educational experiences that actually create a lot of emotions that we can then use, to just deliver better educational experience for students.

Sheldon [00:24:51]:

You brought the game today. Thank you so much with for that. You know, I I love your response, and and I think you bring up a really good Good point. You know? A lot of times with a lot of pushback is people pushing back based off a limited information. They they haven't read the book or they haven't haven't actually reviewed something. Maybe they just overheard something or someone told them, and it was hearsay. They're they the a lot of times people will will push back and and and not even really know what they're talking about to for lack of better words. And so and I think you brought up that good point.

Sheldon [00:25:23]:

And I think sometimes when we and I and I I do training sometimes, and I tell teachers. I say, you know, If you know that this is a controversial context, like this text is maybe controversial, be proactive. Send out this communication ahead of time before you even read the book, before you even write that letter, before you even push for this book to be open or to be available, whatever it is. Go ahead and send this home to the parents. Let them know, hey. Listen. We are we have a lot of students that are interested in reading this book. This is the reason why I support this book.

Sheldon [00:25:52]:

Mhmm. Boom, boom, boom. Put it in their various languages that are available. Make sure that's communicated properly, be proactive as opposed to being reactive at the end of the day. Because like you said, a lot of times, people don't have that that information ahead of time.

Lesley-Ann [00:26:06]:

You know, we don't have to see everybody as adversaries. Yet, you know, they we could try to figure out how are we Gonna make this communication simpler Mhmm. With other people. They could still choose to be angry. Oh, yeah. But, you know, can we at least Give them a little bit more information

Sheldon [00:26:24]:

Absolutely.

Lesley-Ann [00:26:25]:

So that we can have a bit of more of a conversation. Yeah.

Sheldon [00:26:28]:

Yep. I've learned a lot, and I know our audience has has appreciate I hope our audience has appreciated our conversation. I'd love for you to share one final word of advice that you wanna provide to our listeners.

Lesley-Ann [00:26:40]:

I also want people to remember that we don't make change alone. So, you know, part of this emotional intelligence is also about building communities and communities. So if we are teachers, can we support the development of communities in our classrooms If we work with other people or you know, can we have communities that support us as well in in the work that we do? And, I guess I'd love to say that, you know, like, the big ideas that I'm I'm talking about right now in my book are Building a critical awareness of the world, so just understanding the world and these issues and how they affect us, deepening our emotional intelligence. So These questions like anger and joy and building communities and then envisioning and building equitable futures. So We want action. We want people to imagine the worlds that they want and then build them. Right? And those of us with, marginalized identities, we're really important to this conversation. We have to dream, and then we have to build Build communities and and build these new wheels and futures for everyone.

Lesley-Ann [00:27:51]:

So I'll end there.

Sheldon [00:27:52]:

Absolutely. Thank you so much. If we have some folks that wanna connect with you, what's the best way to reach you online?

Lesley-Ann [00:27:58]:

The best place to find me is actually LinkedIn and and Instagram. I'm very active on on Those 2 platforms. So anybody could reach out to me on those platforms fairly easily.

Sheldon [00:28:08]:

Yeah. And we'll leave we'll leave links in the show notes. Once again, I'm speaking to doctor Lesley Ann Noel, the, author of design social change, take action, work toward equity, and challenge the status quo. Leslie Ann, thank you again so much for your time.

Lesley-Ann [00:28:25]:

Thank you so much, Sheldon. This was a wonderful conversation.

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