Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:00:05]:
Welcome advocates, to another episode of the Leading Equity podcast, a podcast that focuses on supporting educators with the tools and resources necessary to ensure equity at their schools. Today's special guest is doctor Mary Reis Booth. Without further ado, Mary, thank you so much for joining us today.

Mary Rice-Boothe [00:00:24]:
Thank you for having me.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:00:25]:
Pleasure's mine. You are the author of Eakins Within Systems of Inequity in Education, a Liberation Guide for Leaders of Color. I'm excited to have you. But before we get into today's topic, I'd love to have you share with us a little bit about yourself and what you currently do.

Mary Rice-Boothe [00:00:41]:
Sure. No problem. So CareerWise, I'm currently the executive director of curriculum development and equity at a nonprofit organization called the Leadership Academy. So we partner with districts across the country, really supporting them in what does it mean to be a culturally responsive leader and creating culturally responsive schools. I think most importantly, I always say is that I am a black woman and a mom and a wife who is trying to break the cycle, low expectations And inequities that I've seen in my own family moving forward.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:01:10]:
Got you. And and let us L. Do you mind where where are you based out of?

Mary Rice-Boothe [00:01:13]:
I am in the Austin area of Texas.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:01:16]:
So Okay. Okay. Is that Round Rock? Not yeah. Is it Round Rock?

Mary Rice-Boothe [00:01:19]:
You are. You got it. Yeah. Round Rock. Exactly.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:01:22]:
Yeah. I was telling you before

Mary Rice-Boothe [00:01:23]:
You're a Texan. So Yeah.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:01:25]:
I am from Texas. Oh, yeah. Okay. Okay. Alright. I I'm excited about the book because as I was reading about it, it just a lot a lot of stuff hit home. I'm a black man that lives in Idaho, And this this book seems to be focused on leadership, folks that are working that are people of color that are working in predominantly white spaces. And there's a particular piece within that book that really kinda stood out to me.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:01:49]:
It was the practice, love, and rage. And, again, It just really hit me. So I I'm just curious. Could you start us off with what was your inspiration behind that?

Mary Rice-Boothe [00:01:59]:
Yeah. And I will first start by saying that I resisted this competency. So I I had the opportunity to interview over 35 different practitioners across country and really hearing from them their experience. And probably about the first half dozen that I interviewed, they always always talked about love And the fact that they lead with love and then how important love was, and I was just like, I don't do that. I don't do the love thing. I don't do emotions As a leader, like, I I kept my emotions at the door. I was a very young leader. When I became a principal, I was in my middle, late twenties.

Mary Rice-Boothe [00:02:35]:
I was very conscious of Who I was, very conscious of not being labeled an angry black woman or anything like that. So I felt like I didn't do nope. Nope. I didn't do emotions. I kept everything, like, Very much kind of sealed. But as I started hearing this over and over again, I had to ask a question then. I'm like, okay. So what does love mean to you? What does that look like? As I again, I got more and more information.

Mary Rice-Boothe [00:02:58]:
I said, oh, actually, wait a second. I was a high school principal. All of my students were overage and uncredited. And so we were kind of their last chance, the last stop before they would go to get their GED. So in order for me to help Those students and to and to really rally our staff to believe in our students and believe their capability, I had to lead with love. Look. I had to be able to kind of bring that emotion into everything that I did. And so once I was able to to kinda get beyond my own own stuff About what what I thought love was and what I thought leading with love looked like, then I was able to like, okay.

Mary Rice-Boothe [00:03:35]:
I can see how this look like and then going back to looking at L Hooks, looking at our community organizers that I use as a basis of this book to see and hear them talk as L. I said, okay. This is something that's really important for folks, especially for those who are leaders of color, who are trying to lead for equity.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:03:52]:
Okay. I got a lot of questions. The first question I have is, I thought it's I thought it was interesting when you first started out, because I was like, where is she going with this? Because you're you initially were saying, like, I don't know. I'll do the motions, and that that wasn't the thing that I used to do. I I get the part where you Kinda like, okay. There is an epiphany, maybe the population that you were serving. And so as a result, he's like, I really do need to lead with love because a lot of my students Are coming from various backgrounds, those kind of things. But why did you initially start off feeling like you should not Express those emotions.

Mary Rice-Boothe [00:04:22]:
I think it's about how your soul how we are socialized and and expected to be leaders. For me, I was always kind of taught to you. You leave those type of emotions at the door. There's a professional you, and there's a personal you. A professional you is the person that is just gets the job done, is focused on the work, and doesn't have all of these feelings be part of their Leadership style. Especially, I was young. I was black. I was a female.

Mary Rice-Boothe [00:04:50]:
And all of those all of those characteristics, Any type of emotion that was connected to any of those characteristics was seen as a negative. And so in order for me to kind of survive and To to believe that in order for me to get a seat at the table, I not only thought, but I was also taught that I had to be Stoic. I had to be focused on getting the job done, and the emotions were not part of getting the job done.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:05:13]:
I'm a throw this out to you. Do you think that that's a that's the same kind of conversation that happens across various races, or do you feel like that's very particular to the black community as far as this is how you present yourself, this is how you navigate these spaces, what are your thoughts there?

Mary Rice-Boothe [00:05:29]:
I think it it does go across. I would say that Other folks that would be considered Asian, Latinx, Native American, indigenous, I would say that they probably are getting similar messages About emotion, I think the angry black woman trope is very prominent and very central, and so it's It's something easy to kind of latch on and to see, but I think there is equivalent to those in in other cultures as well.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:05:55]:
So I know that I have a when it comes to education, my audience is predominantly women. And I mean, it's just teachers in general and leadership, those kind of things. So what kind of message you said, I identify as a black woman. What type of message would you give to an up and coming black woman who is in a leadership role right now that thinks about those stereotypes, the stereotype threat is real to them. What what kind of message may would you give to them?

Mary Rice-Boothe [00:06:21]:
I think it's something that I talk about in the book is the idea of redefining the trope and recognizing the fact that Rage and and be particularly being anger is a key to transformation. And so there's a researcher, last name is Cherry. She talks about this concept The lordian rage. Loitering rage is a powerful thing where it can dis it can destroy a paycheck. It can destroy racial systems and And so it can really lead to to transformation. And she talks about the fact that in particularly for for black women tapping into that rage is actually has gotten us is a country, in particular in that state, to move forward. And so I think I would say to them is, like, don't don't suppress it, but actually bring it as part of who you are And harness it in order to be able to move forward, and it's gonna look and sound differently. I mean, I'm in a space where and when I talk to my coworkers as a As a leadership team, I can really easily say, okay.

Mary Rice-Boothe [00:07:16]:
So I'm I'm angry right now, and this is why I'm angry. You may not be able to do that right away day 1, but you but how are you going to be able to say this is the emotion that I'm feeling, and this is who part of who I am. And it is equally important for you to hear me because of the emotion that I'm expressing right now. You think

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:07:32]:
that there's times, for example, a black woman might need to hold back in these type of situations because of the stereotype? Like, I hear where you're coming from As far as, like, don't suppress it. Don't suppress your anger, and, like and I liked how you said, well, I sometimes will say I'm angry right now, but I'm just curious. Are are there I don't know. Is is is that I'm trying to figure out the best way to ask this question. It it's it's I just I can hear folks thinking, oh, okay. Shoot. Well, doctor doctor Rice Moose said, just go for it. And and then and I don't wanna get emails or you get emails later on.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:08:05]:
So, like, is it a line maybe or are there situations? Is it a time and a place somewhere? Like, what are your thoughts there?

Mary Rice-Boothe [00:08:13]:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think I mean, we're isolating this competency, but there I think there the other competencies around it are going to support this. So one of the other competencies is the idea of tending to relationships and building coalitions.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:08:25]:
Mhmm. I

Mary Rice-Boothe [00:08:26]:
mean, I always say, particularly with the building coalition, I the concrete lead that is is having a White colleague that's going to going to be have the meeting before the meeting for you or that is going to see the text that you're gonna send And they're gonna reaffirm what you're saying, or they're going to be or they're just gonna say it, and you don't have to say anything. So you need to be able to kind of have those folks around you that are going to be in support of you. And I really feel like it's important that we shouldn't feel like we have to do this by ourselves. We are not magical. We are not Superhuman. We are just black women, women of color that are trying to do this work, and so we shouldn't feel like we have to do it ourselves. But when you're when you're in a space where you feel like you have folks that around you that are trying to do the same thing, then you're able to then, much more comfortably, Really, be able to bring all of the emotion that you have within you to the forefront.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:09:20]:
So, basically, when you have more folks that are, I guess, more peers or that understand you on your personal and professional level, maybe. That's that's when you're free to be yourself because a lot of time we had to code switch, And, you know, we're not often ourselves.

Mary Rice-Boothe [00:09:35]:
Yes. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Because I think that's really important piece to be as well. So And and, again, recognizing that there will be peep folks of us, and I have plenty of of friends who have just been like, I don't care if I have fans around me. I'm gonna say what I wanna say. And if I need to throw the keys on the table and and be out the next day, I'll do that.

Mary Rice-Boothe [00:09:54]:
And that's great, and but not all of us are able to do that. So for those of us who want to still stay in the system and want to be able to kind of dismantle the system while in it, we may have to make sure that we have the folks on us before we start really tapping into Those

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:10:09]:
Walk me through that process. So I'm a brand new principal, and I'm already trying to acclimate myself to the culture environment. What are some ways that I can start to build that connection or that coalition, if you will, to support me in my efforts as a leader?

Mary Rice-Boothe [00:10:24]:
Yeah. And I think it's first very clear about what what is my purpose in building this group. I also say you're not gonna just have one Coalition. You're gonna have multiples. You're gonna have the folks that are going to be the formal ones within your school that are going to be the ones that are gonna be the Focus on creating different environment, different out outcomes for your students. But you're also going to have maybe those folks in Informally, they may not be in the meeting, but but, again, are the ones that you can check Eakins and and they can tell you, well, somebody said this, and somebody is Eakins about this part. And so I think it's a matter of Of taking the time to have and build those relationships with different people in Italy, and then you could then be able to figure out, okay, so the right's the right Position of folks that I need and what's the right the the right composition of the of those groups. I think we tend to when we're Trying to build groups and teams that we wanna have folks that are always in alignment with us and are always kinda gonna be our yes People, but also recognize in fact you're also going to need to meet those folks that are not quite, born with you or may bring this Completely any other way.

Mary Rice-Boothe [00:11:32]:
And, like, how are you going to actually bring them in so you can actually see really get a sense of understanding of who they are and what they're trying to do.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:11:40]:
I'm hearing within that response the importance of finding a mentor as well. Maybe someone that has Has gone been in similar situations or has some experience in these areas, especially, again, thinking from a Brand new leader. But even as a seasoned leader, I I think there's always ways that we can learn more as we go. So it sounds like in addition to that Coalition. And I love that you said multiple coalitions, but, also, we probably wanna look for some mentorship as well.

Mary Rice-Boothe [00:12:12]:
Yeah. Yeah. And I think, again, this is this idea that a lot of time in our leadership development programs Mhmm. We don't We emphasize the individual of it all and feeling like we have to know everything. We have to do everything by L. But the the power of being able to to have someone That has done this work before you, and it depends on who you are. Remember I mean, I still have my mentor from the very first day I became a principal.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:12:39]:
I

Mary Rice-Boothe [00:12:39]:
was just talking to him yesterday, actually. So it's been almost almost 20 years that we've been together. And for him, he never tells me what to do, But he is the mirror that is always asking the questions back to me of what I'm trying to ask. And so, like or what I'm saying. And so being able to have Somebody that is willing to be the your reflection and help you think through things, I find to be incredibly powerful. And like I said, I've been doing this for a minute, and Still find it incredibly powerful to have somebody that is going to support me in my continued leadership journey.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:13:10]:
I love this conversation. I like the the fact that you Have started off by saying we need to embrace the rage, k, and not necessarily suppress that. You kinda talked about or touched on the importance. Okay. Yeah. But you also wanna make sure that you have folks around you that are rallied around you that are supportive of the causes and the things that you're you're wanting to do. I I have personally found, and I've I've mentioned this, like, a 1000000 times. Like, I'm a black man that currently lives in Idaho, and I've been in leadership roles.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:13:41]:
One of the things I've struggled with is trying to navigate the code switching piece of things because for me, I talk a certain way. Shoot. I act a certain way. And I found myself always having to define things. I had to reexplain stuff or repeat myself, and I just got to a point of, like, you know what? When in Rome, I'm gonna do as Roman's in in some situations. Do you have any type of tips, strategies that you can give folks that have been in these spaces. It was like, look. I'm me.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:14:08]:
I'm who I am. But then after a while, you just get so much, I don't wanna call it, pushback, but you you just find yourself spend a lot of time having to reexplain Explain stuff and and and try to get folks to understand where you're coming from and and show this is why I'm coming this way. Do you have any strategies or tips folks that are in these type of situations.

Mary Rice-Boothe [00:14:26]:
You need to know when to call it and know that is this actually the space for me?

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:14:31]:
Okay.

Mary Rice-Boothe [00:14:31]:
Right? Is this a phase where I can Actually be successful and can actually move forward. Not every space is is designed for us to be successful, and I think it's I feel like so many of us Stay within spaces for our students and for the love of our students. But if we are not well, We cannot help our students be well.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:14:51]:
Yeah.

Mary Rice-Boothe [00:14:52]:
And so I think that is that's really incredibly important to to actually do a assessment to say, Do I feel like I can actually get the work done in this current situation? If the answer is yes, then I would say, Again, not feelings if everything is on you.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:15:10]:
Mhmm.

Mary Rice-Boothe [00:15:10]:
And so I would go back to the idea of, Like, who is going to be the someone else that you right? You don't need 10, 15 people that are doing this work with you. You just need 1 other person.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:15:23]:
L

Mary Rice-Boothe [00:15:24]:
one other person that is going to be your person have a true honest conversation with, strategize around, be able to Be your who you truly are around. I think that is just integral part of being able to be healthy while while doing this work at at the same time. And I think it's also recognizing the fact that it is also really easy when we get into leadership roles, to also take on that whiteness as well. And so then we start perpetuating Mhmm. What we actually are trying to To dismantle. And I think it's also again, that's why I always say having that other person because they can be the one like, look. How did you just agree to that? Or why did you not say anything to that? Or why is right. Like, why are we okay with this decision? Because sometimes we we get to the point where we're comfortable, And sometimes we prioritize comfort over doing what is necessary for our students.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:16:20]:
I'm glad you said it because I was just As you're talking about the coalitions and all that, I was like, me, personally, I'm a pretty introverted person. So, like, I I don't wanna necessarily grab A bunch of folks because I I'd like to be in my own space. However, you did say just 1 person is is all you need sometimes. And because I was also thinking about other individuals that are like, man, I feel like I'm by myself as like, I'm the only one about this life in general. Like, it's just me. And so, again, if you could find someone I always say even if you feel like there's no one in your school within the staff, colleagues, peers that are available. You could I mean, social media and and so much out there right now these days. You you click you put a hashtag in.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:17:00]:
I bet you find somebody. So, like and and so maybe it's a virtual connection. I mean, I have a lot of friends that I keep up with to this day that I've never physically met them, or they have been available for when I've struggled or when I'm in a certain headspace or whatever it is that mental health is very important. I can reach out to those individuals in FaceTime if I have to. So I think all of these things that you're saying makes a lot of sense. Let me ask you this because I'm a get a little bit more specific because sometimes it sound all nice on paper when it's Ideal. Oh, yeah. Just don't suppress your anger.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:17:33]:
Grab you some friends, colleagues, and things. Let's get a little specific because I've I've been in situations as a school principal where, let's say, a racial matter happens. So I identify as a black man, and let's say some black kids are Our maybe they're the teacher or students that are book that are saying some things or there's some sort of discrimination or some racism, flat out racism that's Eakins place, and I identify with the students. And so in my mind, I'm sitting there thinking, well, how do I handle this without coming across as maybe too Strong with this or maybe I'm not handling this. There's this pressure of how to handle certain racial situations when I am the only person or a small Population of, that identifies with the individuals that are are going through this. And I let's say it's a white student that did something to the black student. How do I So what type of strategies maybe could you provide for folks that are in those type of situations, again, as we're trying to, these spaces?

Mary Rice-Boothe [00:18:29]:
I would first say that there needs to be a a coming to some type of consensus is recognizing the fact that What is it that what's actually the purpose or outcome that I'm looking for in this interaction and then being really clear with the person that whoever the other on the other end, if it'd be students, being teachers, whatever it may be, what is their purpose and outcome that they're looking for? And being transparent about the fact, like, I get us there, or are we not gonna get there? Right? Like, just being super honest. Like, this is what you're looking for. Do we actually think it's gonna happen? And then I Try to have a set of questions that I regularly tap into when in conversation. So questions that will just open up the conversation versus shut it down and Eakins like go, please tell me where where is it you're coming from please explain. What is it that you're looking for? Tell me more. Really open ended questions to be able to hear the other person's perspective and hopefully for them to be able to hear mine as L. And recognizing the fact that a lot of times when we have, interactions, Everybody's not gonna be happy at the end. Right? Right? We're not gonna be able to please everyone, but are we go are we leaving this conversation At least closer to where we started it, at least closer and the willingness to continue the conversation.

Mary Rice-Boothe [00:19:47]:
Because I always feel like If there's a an incident that happened, it's just it's a microcosm of something bigger.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:19:52]:
Mhmm.

Mary Rice-Boothe [00:19:53]:
So how am I actually then using this This particular incident to, like, actually get down to what actually is the root cause of what's happening within my school or within my district that is causing this to happen. And that is actually where I need to spend my time and my energy. It's actually getting to the system level or, otherwise, I'm going to get Fooled into dealing with all these little fires, which are valid, which are important, but actually not gonna make any type of, change to the circumstances in which my students are experiencing. I always try to be realistic about the conversation and the outcome and making sure everybody understands it real. What's a realistic outcome? And then making sure that I am not just going to the next fire, but I'm using this as the data point To to figure out what's actually the real cause of what's happening.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:20:38]:
I love the idea of finding out what are some realistic expectations. I think about the situation happened to my own children. Let's say my my own son was received that verbal insult or my daughter received that kind of treatment. How would I respond? And so so I'm Eakins to take my personal side of things out of this, how I would handle this as a dad, but then I also have it As a black man and as a black kid, and so there's, like, all these things that are running through my mind as far as how do I handled it. And I like that you said really focus on the outcomes And what are the intended outcomes for and at the end of the day, just like courageous courageous conversations whether to expect nondisclosure nondisclosure or something like that. I I'm I'm tear I'm messing up the quote.

Mary Rice-Boothe [00:21:22]:
Accept and expect nonconverter.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:21:24]:
There it is. Yeah. There it is. Okay. At the end of the day. Right? So so that's That's good. Okay. Thank you for for saying that.

Mary Rice-Boothe [00:21:30]:
No problem.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:21:31]:
There's another thing that I I think about is there's a lot of and I, again, I've experienced this. So that's why I said that your book, everything just hits home for me because I'm like, L. This is this I I need to grab me a copy because I I could think about My time thinking like I have to prove myself. I'm not a diversity hire. I'm supposed to be here. I was the best candidate. I'm saying so are there any words of of encouragement maybe that you you have or, again, strategies or anything that you can give to someone who's who's in the maybe imposter syndrome mindset. And I think that I I don't want to appear as if again, I'm just a diversity hire that I I wanna make sure that folks know that I'm supposed to be here, but there's all these pressures of doing well or I have to work twice as hard, that that whole mindset.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:22:17]:
What what kind of tip Strategies or encouragement can you give in those situations?

Mary Rice-Boothe [00:22:21]:
Mhmm. Yeah. Well, first of all, just acknowledging the fact that you, At this given point within our school systems, you probably are working towards as hard. So right? That's Yeah. That's that's a given. Yeah. Alright. So I'm not gonna try to act like, oh, you're not doing that.

Mary Rice-Boothe [00:22:36]:
You're not you're right. Like, it's it's what's happening. My thing is also is this idea of of being really, really In tune with who you are, where you're coming from, and where you're trying to go, and also and not changing who you are in order to get to where you wanna go. And so this that 1st competency around demonstrating self awareness. I I talk about the fact that this is a lifelong journey. And I know for me, like, Even though even though I spend years writing this book, I'm still on the journey of of really understanding who I am and particularly around In in the leadership role, like so what I I gave them in a book is this borrow, Bobby Oparo, I think his name is. I'm messing it up. It's a cycle of socialization.

Mary Rice-Boothe [00:23:16]:
I mean, this is this opportunity to really to take a step back and to see what are the all of the inputs that was put into me in order for me to get where I am, And how are all those influences were on me, and then how does that show up in my leadership, and how am again, how am I Perpetuating it, and how am I supporting it? And I think it is a matter of of really being clear about who you are as one step of it. And I think that Going back all the way, actually, back all the way up to the 10th competency, I talk about the idea of really being really clear about your values and having a really clear Kind of like liberation. Like, what what is my mission statement that I have? And if you're able to kind of do those in conjunction right. So I'm super clear about who I am, And I'm aware of who I am as well as I'm very clear about what my values are and what is it that I'm trying to go to, what's my My liberation statement and how am I ensuring that I'm holding that container for myself and noticing and recognizing, like, all the things that may Push against that container, and how am I what's gonna be my response to that? So a lot of times, again, in leadership, you're Sometimes the decisions that are being asked of you or they have to make may be not in alignment with your values. So if you're a district leader and you're being asked to consolidate schools or close schools, That may not be in alignment with your values, so you're gonna have to make a decision. Is it okay for me to be Eakins alignment mean, to make this decision that may not be aligned with my values, and what am I gonna lose as a result of that? And or is it I am not okay with this right now, and I'm gonna have to make a different type of decision. But if you're not really aware of all of these pieces, I think it's very easy for us to get trapped in a cycle or in a Hamster wheel of just trying to survive and or trying to live up to some type of expectation that is not part of the expectation of who I am. And so I think that's super important and and something that I think we always have to be in check with and always have to kind of go back To see, is this actually am I playing true to who I am, or am I just doing this because of what this system that I'm in, is it asking of

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:25:20]:
Oh, okay now, Mary. Oh, don't bring the fire like that. Okay. Okay. So good. This that that was good. That was good right there. So that that's my we're gonna end it there.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:25:29]:
So here's the thing here's the thing. I L have enjoyed a lot from you. And, again, I could resonate with a lot of this, and I know a lot of my audience members can resonate with this This conversation as well. I'd love for you to take us home with any final word of advice that you wanna provide to our listeners.

Mary Rice-Boothe [00:25:45]:
Yeah. I think the the biggest part that I my Biggest mission with this book is to recognize the fact that if you if you're in Idaho or you're in Texas or wherever you may be And you feel like as if you are isolated or by yourself, you are not by yourself. And so there are plenty of us who are Wanting to and also striving to be successful within our systems. And then this book is hopefully Helps you recognize the fact that you can be successful and then also make sure that you are reaching out. Don't and don't feel like you have to do, any of this work by yourself.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:26:19]:
How to do this by yourself. You matter of fact, if you need some help, look into getting Eakins within systems of inequity in education, a liberation guide for leaders of color, written by doctor Mary Reis Booth. Mary, it has truly been a pleasure. How do how do folks reach out to you, connect with you online?

Mary Rice-Boothe [00:26:37]:
Yep. So I am on all the social medias. I'm not on TikTok. My daughter says I'm too old for that. But everything else, I'm a m rice booth. So first name, m and then rice booth And then everything. I'm probably the most active on LinkedIn where you can find me, and then the book is wherever books are sold. And I also have a substack that I put out twice a month Where I try to put out continue interviews of folks that I'm talking to about their experiences as well.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:27:02]:
Sounds good. We'll leave links in the show notes. Mary, it has truly been a pleasure. Thank you so much for your time.

Mary Rice-Boothe [00:27:07]:
Alright. Thank you. Appreciate it.

Are you subscribed to the podcast? If you’re not, I want to encourage you to do that today. I don’t want you to miss an episode. Click here to subscribe in iTunes!

Now if you enjoy listening to the show, I would be really grateful if you left me a review over on iTunes, too. Those reviews help other advocates find the podcast and they’re also fun for me to go in and read. Just click here to review, select “Ratings and Reviews” and “Write a Review” and let me know what your favorite part of the podcast is. Thank you!