Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:00:00]:
Welcome, advocates, to another episode of the Leading Equity Podcast, a podcast that focuses on supporting educators with the tools and resources necessary to ensure equity at their goals. Today's special guest is Charity Marcella Moran, and we're talking about project based learning today. So without further ado, Charity, thank you so much for joining us today.

Charity Marcella Moran [00:00:23]:
Thank you so much Sheldon for having us.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:00:26]:
Pleasure. Pleasure is mine. I got to give a shout out to Kwame for introducing us. So this this is gonna be fun because as I was talking to you before we even started recording, it's like, I I got 300 plus episodes 350 plus episodes, and I have not discussed project based learning. So I'm sorry. Shame on me. You can y'all can get on me for that, but here we are. This is the episode.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:00:52]:
So before we get into it, before we start, Charity, I'd love for you to share a little bit about yourself and what you currently do.

Charity Marcella Moran [00:00:58]:
Okay. I'm Charity Marcella Moran. I am an educational consultant working now as a national faculty with PBL Works. I started this thing as a geometry teacher. I've done work as a school development coach with the New Tech Network, which is project based learning as well. And I'm currently, most recently, and most proud of an author, a co author with Aaron Sanchez and Mickey Evans on a book on place based learning, which is project based learning anchored in a place. So we got a lot of PBL acronyms and experiences running around here to talk about.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:01:35]:
Alright. Alright. Yes. And, folks, links are in the show notes for the book. Make sure you grab yourself a copy. So today is kinda more the precursor where we're gonna be talking about what project based learning is. So there's a lot of PBLs, as Charity mentioned. So let's get into it.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:01:50]:
Charity, what is project based learning?

Charity Marcella Moran [00:01:53]:
So project based learning is a method of pedagogy where we create deeper learning experiences for students, connecting content to their lives outside of school.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:02:09]:
Okay. So connect that to equity. What is what is that how is that related to equity?

Charity Marcella Moran [00:02:15]:
Oh, you know, so both of the organizations that I'm affiliated with, PBLWorks and PBL Path, they both do a good job of making connections, drawing through lines of project based learning to equity. So at PBLWorks, there are 4 equity levers that show that if we that research shows that if we design and implement projects with knowledge of students, shared power, a cognitive demand, and literacy in mind, then we are doing what it takes, you know, to make sure that our project based learning classrooms are fostering equitable access for students to these deeper learning experiences. And then at PBL Path, we take that place based learning, same concept in terms of projects driving instruction, and we make sure that we anchor those projects in the community, in the students' ways of knowing things, and embed the culture in their learning, whether it's the culture that's being started or the culture of the students in their community.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:03:26]:
This is good. Okay. Okay. Okay. I got a lot of I've been taking notes already just because as I'm I'm as I'm listening to you, I'm like, okay. This this makes sense. So this is not just find a project and have your kids do it. There's it sounds like there's some some important planning that needs to take place in order for this to be effective, such as knowledge of students and then you also mentioned the part of in the community.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:03:51]:
So, like, talk us through a little bit more as far as, like, finding the right project or what do we need to do on the back end to figure out what is the right project for our students to do?

Charity Marcella Moran [00:04:03]:
Absolutely. So we need to make sure, 1st and foremost, that we're anchoring the learning in the content standards, in those, ways of knowing the things that we wanna build build up in the students. Right? The experiences, the knowledge, the key skills that we want them to walk away with. So we start there and say, okay. Is there an essential question or driving challenge or or problem that I can get students engaged in that then does the work of connecting that content to their community, to their culture, to the culture that's being started, to the context of the place. So that's kinda the three angles of triangulation, the questions

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:05:04]:
Okay.

Charity Marcella Moran [00:05:05]:
Alright

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:05:06]:
Okay. Alright. So connecting students with content. You also mentioned that we have to know the kids. So talk me through that. Is that just, oh, I know Johnny, I know Mary, they seem pretty cool. Like, tell me more about how do I get to like, what do I need to know about my students?

Charity Marcella Moran [00:05:22]:
Yes. So it's not just knowing, you know, the data that comes with them. Right? That's one layer of knowing, but there are multiple ways of knowing in terms of getting to know the students, where they live, what do they find important, what are their strengths, their interests, and this is kind of a it's very much of an ongoing process. It's not something that, we take those beginning of the year interest surveys and and, you know, skills inventories, and those also provide good information, but that's not where it stops. It keeps going. It starts there. We keep getting to know the students, even down to the nuances of how do they engage and interact with each other in activities that we could have them doing on day 1. You know? What let's play a game of bingo, and let's figure out we can learn and observe who our leaders are, who the introverts are, how do we want to engage them.

Charity Marcella Moran [00:06:21]:
And then we can do the act of just asking students, you know, who are you? What do you how do you think of yourself? There are lots of tools that both organizations offer towards those efforts. There are many things, you know, that we could source out to you to let you know. But there there's every day, how do they walk into the classroom? Are they device heavy? You know? What social media do they love? What makes them passionate when they talk about things? What lights up their eyes? Like Sonia Nieto would say, you know, what brings that light in their eyes? And then how can I pull all of that into anything that I know is, you know, connected to content for my classroom and for myself? That also indicates that the educator themselves need to be very kinda in this process, if not deeply knowledgeable of themselves in certain ways, because you can only know others as deeply as you know yourself. And so it's kind of a give and take in terms of educator and learner, you know? How am I getting to know myself and sharing myself with my students so that they can get to know themselves and share themselves with me. It's a very, very, 2 handed exchange.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:07:34]:
Gotcha. So it's give and take. It's it's student centered is what I'm hearing. You as a teacher, you're you're you're giving yourself as well. And just like your the kids are learning from you, you're learning from the kids. Is that right?

Charity Marcella Moran [00:07:48]:
Absolutely. Exactly. That's exactly what it is. It's constantly being attentive to learning more and picking up on the nuances of my students so that we can fold that into instruction in whichever way it pops is itself available.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:08:03]:
Gotcha. Okay. Now you mentioned introverts, which makes me wonder, like, when we're talking about projects, you know, usually it's gonna involve multiple people in a group or something like that. Or, actually, maybe I should go back. Is that so it's project based learning. Is it classroom wide project based learning, or is it something where it's, like, we're putting groups of 3 and fours? Like, what is the group? How big should the group be, I guess, when it comes to project based learning?

Charity Marcella Moran [00:08:30]:
So that's one of those questions that I like to just say yes. It is all those things. It is all those things. You just have to see you think about, is this the first project that my students have ever experienced? Is it the first one that I've ever designed and implemented as the as the teacher in the class? Taking all those things into consideration, you know, what are the classroom structures like? How are students as collaborators anyways? I really love myself to encourage teachers to harness, like, Harry Wong, the first 20 days of school.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:09:03]:
Oh. A lot

Charity Marcella Moran [00:09:04]:
of it, you know, to do a lot of that initial assessing and learning and and data gathering and and and culture building, actually, of the classroom. So project based learning, you wanna make sure we we make sure that when we're designing our projects that we are you know, we have students doing the work of the content that's most closely aligned to the way that content happens outside of the classroom walls. So some things are extremely collaborative in nature. Others are individualized in certain ways. It just depends on the content. But no matter what, in each project that we implement, we wanna make sure that we're building in ways to allow for individual demonstration of knowledge as well as any collaborative moments that make sense for the design.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:09:57]:
So give me examples. What does that look like? What would what does an individual like, letting an individual shine and then also the the collective group shine as well? What what does that look like?

Charity Marcella Moran [00:10:07]:
It could be, you know, individuals crafting their own kind of independent based, on their own opinion based ideas for a way to approach city council, and then according to their different individualized approaches, either diversifying teams that present to city council in terms of maybe we have 4 different types of perspectives coming together or 4 different groups of the similar, perspectives working together to then pitch an idea or bring a motion to city council. And that could be, you know, for a variety of products, for a variety of projects, not just all projects go to city council.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:10:53]:
Okay. So one example is what I'm hearing is to in to, like, an individual's perspective. Right? And then another way is, like, okay. This is how I would approach it. And then another way is, like, as a group, this is how we're going to approach. Is that what I heard?

Charity Marcella Moran [00:11:09]:
Absolutely. Absolutely. We could even have students curating menu items, and one pocket of students is saying, oh, I love appetizers, or I don't know anything about desserts, so I wanna focus on desserts as my individual. So, you know, now all the appetizers come together and decide which is the best, and that's what's gonna go to the class menu. And so, you know, really thinking about it in different ways in terms of different products.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:11:36]:
Okay. Okay. I'm with you. Okay. If I notice that it appears that a student doesn't appear to be engaged, and I know the personality as being more of the quiet introverted side, or maybe I know them as more outgoing, but they don't seem to be engaged in the project. What are some things that a teacher should do?

Charity Marcella Moran [00:11:53]:
Oh, man. I love this question because it's not too dissimilar to what I do as a facilitator of adult learners in the room. Okay. So, you know, and those were in both regards, giving opportunities for those individuals to express themselves in multiple forms and, you know, not necessarily trying to force them into group work, but creating the conditions and having structures such as, you know, timed out discussion protocols and discussion prompts so that even if there's a 5 minute spot allotted for the introvert to share their work with a peer. If they speak only in one minute, we agree in the classroom or in facilitation to hold those other 4 minutes sacred just so that they have access to that same equitable amount of time. And we're not just running through and plowing over the fact that they may wanna hold that space in silence, because sometimes active listening is just as powerful a learning tool and actively just pausing and critically thinking as, you know, processing verbally. Yeah. So things like that that allow space and opportunity for the learner to express themselves in a way that is, you know, beneficial to who they are.

Charity Marcella Moran [00:13:16]:
And that's one of the beauties of project based learning is that we're not asking all elephants to climb trees with the monkeys, that we are allowing them to graze slowly if they need to and still express and demonstrate their learning.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:13:30]:
I've had situations where I've I've talked to teachers about project based learning and one of the things that comes up sometimes is, oh, we had a student that they they weren't staying on task. They, you know, they're supposed to be in this area with their group and they're moving around and doing this and that or on the opposite end is like they they're not doing anything at all or I've even seen situations where they're like well this one student took over and now they're a leader, but no one else is really getting an opportunity to really participate and so understanding that student and what their qualities are and where where their habits are and and finding the right place to put them or right, I guess, resource for them in these projects, to me seems very important. Otherwise, those students might end up getting in trouble, disciplinary actions, oh, you didn't follow rules, teachers' rules, whatever it is. Have you seen any of these type of situations?

Charity Marcella Moran [00:14:26]:
Absolutely. And, you know, aside from the introvert part, every project has some sort of team formation process where those teams then maybe when I was working at New Tech and at Buck Institute and PBL Works and with PBL Path, we all, across the board, in some way, shape, or form, and I'm seeing this in other models, like expeditionary learning and whatnot, we all encourage some form of students formulating team agreements or team contracts, as well as, you know, kinda at the on-site and and as part of the launch of a project, making sure that, students also, you know, leverage task logs or, you know, kanban boards, some sort of way to help organize students as they organize themselves in terms of who's gonna do the work, when are they gonna do it, how are we gonna hold each other accountable, and what is that process that we agree to to follow in the event that someone doesn't carry their weight. So just like a business partnership outside of school, having an agreement in place up front such that, you know, we all agree to do these things. And if we deviate, then we agree that this is how we're gonna handle it. And, projects that don't start there, eventually, wind up having to go there because, you know, classes be classing and life be hyphen. And just like in the real world, you know, any partnership entered into or business operation without a proper plan in place is gonna have to have that conversation at some point.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:16:12]:
So do you suggest that a teacher sets that up prior to the project starting? Like, let's say, like you said, a classroom or group agreements, like, is that a part of the lesson plan? Like, we need to do these first, and then I'm gonna introduce the project?

Charity Marcella Moran [00:16:29]:
You know, part of those first 20 days that I highly recommend is actually, you know, co creating and doing some creation and co management of the learning space with students, whether that's coming up with learning agreements together or deciding, you know, and having that discussion. Yes. This is a project based room, which means that everybody has to carry their own weight. So let's agree now upfront what does that look like. Or that could be part of each project's launch, because maybe according to each project, and what questions or how teams will be executing, it might be different.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:17:03]:
Okay. Okay. Okay. Alright. Let's let's let's let's shift gears a little bit, because I don't want folks to think, oh, I just I just gave them a a group assignment, and so I'm project based learning. I would love for you to break down what project based learning is not.

Charity Marcella Moran [00:17:20]:
Okay. So I just I'm just gonna keep shouting out these lovely organizations that have, you know, set the foundation for me. It the New Tech Network, it was really a a doing projects versus project based learning juxtaposition. And at PBL Works, it's emphasized in terms of being main course projects and not dessert. And so both of them really convey the same message. So it is peep project based learning is not, I'm gonna teach and front load all this content, and then we're gonna do something with it. Okay. It's not that.

Charity Marcella Moran [00:17:57]:
It's actually quite the opposite. We're gonna start with what is the something that we're gonna do. What is that challenge to solve? What is the, you know, prototype to build, or what is that community partner who needs our help? Right? We lack in place based learning to really anchor in the place. So what does that what does Whitney Plantation need from us? They need signage. Right? So starting with the challenge, and then anything that you feel like you need to front load or pre teach, bake that in. Now it's part of the learning, and it's in service of this challenge. And so that's where the project based learning begins. Everything else is a dessert project that comes at the end, or we're just doing projects.

Charity Marcella Moran [00:18:45]:
And that's okay too because we can take that stuff and strengthen it and make it more of a deeper learning experience that we desire.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:18:54]:
So does every project have to have a goal or a challenge?

Charity Marcella Moran [00:18:57]:
I've seen some projects that are just strictly explorations and, you know, just sharing of results. So, no, it doesn't always have to solve a problem. Sometimes, especially in our place based learning, we encourage not everything is a problem to be solved. Sometimes there are assets to be amplified in the community and bright spots that need to be, you know, shined upon. And so sometimes that's the the challenge.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:19:25]:
Okay. Now with 2 people in a group, would that be considered a project based learning, or is that more cooperative? Like, is there, I I guess, a line? Like, you need at least 3 people for this to be a project?

Charity Marcella Moran [00:19:42]:
No. The line in terms of what is considered a project is is basically, is it what's anchoring the learning, or does it come at the end? When we're talking about, you know, what what PBLWorks calls gold standard PBL and in place based learning, you know, we wanna make sure it's not it doesn't have to be, I mean, you know, of course, a minimum of 1. It could be the entire classroom who's working towards one goal. It's more about the structure of the learning and how how is instruction delivered, how are students experiencing the content.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:20:18]:
Alright. So it sounds like we can be closely responsive in our practices or our project based learning. If we get to know our students and understand what are their interests, what resonate what would resonate with them. I heard also that it is important to consider the the community that you're serving and if there's some things that you can do to support your community as a class. What other pieces do you think we should discuss when it comes to making sure that whatever project based learning we're we're implementing, that I haven't touched on already?

Charity Marcella Moran [00:20:50]:
Oh, my god. My most favorite piece is where we kinda take the road less traveled in our place based learning discussion is really two key things, the decolonization of curricula

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:21:06]:
Mhmm.

Charity Marcella Moran [00:21:07]:
And more liberatory instructional and assessment practices. So what does that sound like? What is that, Charity? Those are some really good sounding words, hot topics, you know, red alert, red alert, hashtag, liberatory pedagogy, hashtag decolonized curricular. Right? But there really is where I get I get fired up around these two things, especially decolonizing curricula, because that means that we are decentering the white perspective that's always, kinda led education and explorations of learning and bringing voices to the table, actually getting students to say whose voices are not heard that were there at the time. It's getting students to the point where when we talk about South Africa and everything is in Afrikaans, I want students to ask, what was this land originally called? Who were the people originally here, and I need to know more about them? You know? So those types of things are what happens when we decolonize curricula. We de center an individualized approach to everything and emphasize the collective. We emphasize, as well, not so much we anchor into the ways of knowing. So, if we're working with a very, you know, oratory set of people, then we're going to make sure that in decolonizing curricula that we offer more opportunities for those students to be, producing things that are more oral and verbal in nature, since that is the best way that they express themselves, as opposed to everything being in writing and, you know, not saying, oh, it's not in writing, so it must not be true. You know? And so, really leaning into those aspects help us to decolonize curriculum, which then kind of leads itself to these liberatory teaching practices and assessment practices, such that we're not just bound to quizzes and tests and the traditional things.

Charity Marcella Moran [00:23:05]:
Those are still very much so present. Direct instruction is very much so present, but it also does a healthy mix of other types of assessment in terms of allowing students, you know, those performance based assessments and opportunities, you know, for informal and more observation based assessments as well. So, just really diversified our portfolio in terms of how we teach and how we assess is what really, really captures some of that moment. And project based learning really lends itself to both of those things, decolonizing and liberating.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:23:44]:
Okay. Well, how do first of all, thank you for that. That was dope. Here here's a question then. Alright? Because you mentioned tests and quizzes are still important. Direct instruction is still important. What are some strategies for assessing students? Because I don't we haven't talked about that yet. Is it because I think when I think of project based learning, I think of a rubric.

Charity Marcella Moran [00:24:07]:
Yeah.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:24:07]:
But I'm I'm wondering on your end because you mentioned the liberatory side of things. Like, what are some strategies for the assessment, you know, grading and things like that?

Charity Marcella Moran [00:24:16]:
Yeah. So a rubric is important so that we can, you know, make the assessment process objective and fair. Mhmm. Not a surprise to everyone involved, and very upfront. Sometimes when we launch our projects, we can even launch by and include in the launch a rubric so students know where we're going, and and then know that instruction is gonna get you there. When we think of assessment in project based learning and place based learning, we really want to make sure that we're thinking of it in a way that empowers. And so that means multiple forms. Students assessing themselves, leveraging the rubrics, students giving peer to peer feedback, outside guests coming in and maybe focusing in as a community partner on 1 or 2 key aspects of the rubric to support students.

Charity Marcella Moran [00:25:13]:
So assessment is it goes beyond grading. Because, honestly, if done well, in my most humble opinion and, you know, well over 15, almost 20 years of experience, that if if done well, assessment and project based learning, by the time we get to the submission of that final product, student, teacher, any community partner that has been involved the entirety of the time, parents along the way, we'll all be on the same page in terms of what's that grade. Because we can say where we've grown according to this rubric, where we still maybe need to grow, but we do have a sufficient answer to whatever that essential or driving question is. So, it's assessment and project based learning gets to be that tool that supports what Zaretta Hammond calls a learning partnership. So, it's not a tool for I mean, it does do some evaluation and grade assigning along the way, but it's more or less a tool that helps the learner monitor who and how and what they're learning, and it lets the educator know how to adjust instruction to get them to, you know, that at standard or above, part of the rubric.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:26:32]:
Gotcha. Okay. Alright. Well, listen. Again, I always like I I enjoy talking to you, and I I'm learning a lot already about project based learning. And, I I'd love for you to share any final words of advice that you wanna provide to our listeners out there.

Charity Marcella Moran [00:26:47]:
Oh my god. Proper planning. And I always like to tell my friends in the workshops I'm facilitating is do your future self a favor and take advantage of all the planning time that is made available to you. Like, if if you're planning a project, try to get as far into that process as you can so that rollout is just, you know, kicking the carpet roll, watching it roll, and keeping it on the GPS. That's it. Keeping it on those learning pathways. So, really, you know, planning is the most difficult part. But to me, it's not the devil's in the details, but it's like the joy is in the details.

Charity Marcella Moran [00:27:31]:
Because I know that what I bake in upfront, whether it's too much or, you know, way a lot more than I think I could tackle, I would rather you have way too much to think about because you never know where your students are gonna take you on the journey. So really walking in with a really proper, fully fleshed out planning tool, is gonna do your future self a favor. Hashtag do your future self a favor. That's what I would say.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:28:01]:
Alright. Do yourself a future. Yes. Future self a favor, and and I totally agree. I mean, it's it it goes without saying. Like, we we should know this, but, you know, I I think it's really good that you're bringing that up because I think some people think it's the same thing as just doing a regular lesson plan. Mhmm. And, it's a lot more than that when we're doing a project, based learning project.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:28:22]:
So, yes, thank you for that. Yes. So if we have some folks that wanna connect with you, what's the best way to reach you online?

Charity Marcella Moran [00:28:29]:
Okay. I am at I do school personally on all things social media or charity at I do school. You can also reach me at Charity at PBL Path and at PBL Path on Facebook and Instagram. That'll take you to our websites and our books and everything.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:28:47]:
Oh, she said books, plural. Okay. Well, good. Well, once again, I'm speaking with a charity, Marcela Moran, coauthor of Place Based Learning, Connecting Inquiry, Community, and Culture, 7 place based learning design principles to promote equity for all students. Charity has been a pleasure. Thank you so much for your time.

Charity Marcella Moran [00:29:07]:
Thank you, Sheldon.

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