Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:00:00]:
To have the kids to another episode of the Leading Equity Podcast. A podcast that focuses on supporting educators with the tools and resources necessary to ensure equity at their schools. Today, I have a repeat guest. First of all, let me just say this. This this woman came by my school and personally handed me a copy, a signed copy of her book, Navigating School Board Politics. That is out and it's available. Course links in the show notes. But without further ado, doctor Carrie Sampson is here.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:00:33]:
This is her second time on the show as a matter of fact. So Carrie, thank you so much for joining us today.

Dr. Carrie Sampson [00:00:37]:
Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:00:40]:
Pleasure is mine. I appreciate you for stopping by. I know who you are, but I love for you to share a little bit to our listeners about who you are and what you currently do.

Dr. Carrie Sampson [00:00:49]:
Sure. Yeah. First of all, it's good to have you in the same city now. So it's nice that you could stop by and and see you in your space and in action. My name is Carrie Sampson. I'm an associate professor of educational leadership and innovation at the Mary Lou Fulton Teachers College at Arizona State University. I teach mostly in education policy and leadership. My research, though, is focused largely on school boards and school districts and community advocacy at the district level.

Dr. Carrie Sampson [00:01:17]:
And I've been researching school boards and all those things that are adjacent to school boards for about a decade now. Most of my work is centered on how school boards are involved in policy, and districts are involved in policy and practice when it relates to educational equity. So whether they're advancing equity or whether they're not advancing equity, I'm interested in all of that. I also wanna note that I'm a parent, a mother of 2 school age children, and so I come to that this work from that vantage point, and that really informs and motivates what I do on a day to day, both in terms of my teaching and my engagement in the community.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:01:56]:
Are you a active member of the school board for your children's school as well?

Dr. Carrie Sampson [00:02:01]:
No. I am not. I do pay attention to the school board of my children. But, no, I I I have stayed in the the area of research when it comes to that. Maybe in another chapter of life, I will engage in that in that, you know, at that level.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:02:17]:
Sounds good. So you're also an author, and we wanna talk about navigating school board politics. Can you tell us a little bit about what a reader would expect, maybe who the intended art audience is for the book as well?

Dr. Carrie Sampson [00:02:29]:
For sure. Yeah. So the intended audience is prospective and current school board members. I really wanted to write a book. I had been doing this work, like I said, for about a decade, but I wanted to write for a different audience. A lot of my my work was in peer reviewed publications, very academic, behind paywalls, and such. So this book really is, I I guess, I would consider it my gift in some way to in my effort in translating this work to a broader audience. And so I wanted to especially at this point in time, I think boards have kind of emerged in into the political sphere, into the educational sphere, and in a different way than they had when I first started researching boards about 10 years ago.

Dr. Carrie Sampson [00:03:14]:
So a lot more people are interested in school boards, both, you know, from the field of education, but just the broader community knows a lot more about school boards and is are interested in this topic and interested maybe in in running for their school board. And so I wanted to, again, like, offer a front foundation, a framework for folks who are committed to advancing equity in their school districts.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:03:37]:
Love it. Alright. So I'm curious. You say you've been doing this research for well over 10 years at this point. So we're talking decade. What led you to want to do this type of research?

Dr. Carrie Sampson [00:03:48]:
Well, my obsession with school board started as a graduate student when I was working with a professor, doctor Sonia Douglas, who is now at Teachers College in Columbia. She was doing a project on school desegregation in Southern Nevada, and she asked me to work with her. I didn't know much about school boards at the time, but I soon realized how key they were to making decisions that impacted students for decades after those decisions were made. And so in this example of the district that we worked that we were researching, it was Clark County School District in Las Vegas. At the time, and this was the the late sixties, early seventies, it was pretty much an all white school board, mostly white men, and they were mandated by the court to desegregate schools. However, the district got to vote on how they would desegregate schools. And so in that research, we found that this the plan that they put in place put the burden of busting on black children for about 20 years until mostly black mothers in the majority black neighborhood organized and threatened the district to keep their children from attending schools on count day. And so at that point, when it came to that, that meant that they might not get funding, the funding they need.

Dr. Carrie Sampson [00:05:01]:
So the district relented, and then the school board voted to do a different plan that satisfied many of the black families in that community. And so 2 major lesson lessons I came away with from that particular research is, 1, that the school board had a lot of power and authority when it came to issues of equity. And I wondered, would that original plan to desegregate schools have been more equitable if the board had been more racially representative of the community that they were serving. So had there been even just 1 or 2 black people on that board, would would the plan, would the discussion have been different? And then 2, I saw the power of community advocacy and activism at the school board level and how that played such an important role in addressing some of the inequities in terms of policies and practices. And so when I came to this work, I thought, you know, what is what's going on contemporarily with boards? What is their role? Do they make policy? Do they push policy? Do they you know, what is their role in policies and practices today? What do school boards look like today? Are they more racially representative? And does that make a difference? And so that's where I kind of I started to pursue this work in the book is a combination of the original work that I started to pursue and building on that. Cases that I did in addition to small studies I've done since then, which includes, I I did some studies on school board meetings, which is what I I spoke with you about in our previous conversation, but I have also done work on black indigenous people of color school board members throughout the country. And so some of that work shows up in the book, but it's really centered largely on these three cases that I did after the school desegregation work.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:06:43]:
Okay. Thank you for sharing. And and I I have questions because you said that the burden going back to that desegregation case, you said that the transportation burden fell on a lot of the the black families. Was it I mean, tell us a little bit more. What what do you mean by the transportation kinda fell on them?

Dr. Carrie Sampson [00:07:00]:
Sure. Yeah. So they had the option. They had toyed with a few different plans. One plan would have been more equitable in terms of, you know, white white children would be bused into the majority black community in equal years as black children were bused out. And the plan that they ended up going with was called the 6th Grade Center Plan. And so they bussed black children the majority of black children in the West Las Vegas area would stay in their neighborhood for kindergarten and for 6th grade in these 6th grade centers. And then they were bussed out for about 11, let's see, we say 11 of the 13 years, if you include kindergarten, years of schooling to other, you know, majority white neighborhoods throughout Las Vegas.

Dr. Carrie Sampson [00:07:40]:
And so some some of these children were bussed 20, 30 minutes away, which meant that and this is what was difficult for the majority black women in that neighborhood, black mothers, some of them were single mothers, being able to get to their children when they were sick if they didn't have cars, getting to PTOs, there was no Zoom at that time to just Zoom into to a PTO meeting. But to get involved in those schools was really difficult. And so they felt like there was just this big disconnect. And they also felt like the heart of their their community was, you know, before, desegregation were were schools, and and they didn't have that anymore in the same way where their kids were were gone, you know, were leaving, and, you know, their schools just were not the same in that neighborhood. And that, like I said, happened for nearly 20 years, from 1972 to about 19 93.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:08:33]:
That's that that was like yesterday. That that wasn't that wasn't too long.

Dr. Carrie Sampson [00:08:36]:
Yeah. People talk about remembering and and, you know, going to a 6th grade center or being bust out. I mean, these are folks that are, yeah, well and alive today.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:08:45]:
You know, I I can I think about the students, the the parents that were impacted, but I also wonder about the staff that was impacted? So did they close down the predominantly black schools? And did the staff lose their jobs? What happened with the, I guess, the the teaching force?

Dr. Carrie Sampson [00:09:01]:
In our work, we interviewed a lot of black educators, black community members. We wanted to tell a counter story, essentially, to what had been told. And, yeah, that was what we learned was that, you know, a lot of the black teaching force lost their jobs, similar to what happened in the South after desegregation. And the 6th grade centers interestingly became all of a sudden, the district invested an influx of resources in these 6th grade centers to be able to attract, I guess, pacify white families to come into the neighborhood because there were a lot there was a whole bus out movement, I mean, of of white families who did not want their kids to come in 6th grade. And then there was this interesting drop in public school enrollment in 6th grade. So several families decided to go you know, send their kids to private school just in 6th grade to avoid desegregation. And so there was there was a lot of interesting kind of elements, I think, to this point.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:09:54]:
Man, I mean, we we could do a whole separate pack. I'm a history teacher. So I'm I'd I've I'm all in this. But, you know, I don't wanna take away from the the topic, but because I I will eat all this up. So one of the we're gonna have to get together and and and I wanna chop that up and learn more about it because I I am definitely intrigued. But fast forward

Dr. Carrie Sampson [00:10:12]:
Okay. Fast forward.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:10:14]:
Even though our school are are still segregated in a lot of ways. And, again, that's a whole another conversation. But you said that there's 3 major cases that you kinda study for this current book that you you put out. And was there an overarching theme that you noticed, or did you wanna kinda share a little bit? And, of course, folks, links in the show notes for the book, grab your copy. But is there some things that you wanna kinda share that you discovered it within your research?

Dr. Carrie Sampson [00:10:38]:
Yeah. That's a great question. And there are a lot of examples of, I guess, efforts to dismantle certain equity efforts and districts. For instance, recent in the last few years, we've had a whole movement against this, like, anti CRT, anti critical race, theory efforts by families, communities, you know, district you know, folks who are running for school boards, some of the people that are in school board seats. And, you know, there's been a lot of misunderstandings about really what is taught in k through 12 schools. So is critical race theory really even taught? I mean, I teach it actually at a graduate student level. I have never seen critical race theory taught in k through 12 schools, but, you know, I think this has caused folks to critique the curriculum and anything that is maybe considered culturally relevant curriculum that centers or even gives space to other, cultures such as black history, Latino history, ethnic studies. There's a whole movement around ethnic studies.

Dr. Carrie Sampson [00:11:43]:
And so some of those decisions at the school board level, the the push and effort to ban certain books, like I said, to alter the curriculum or to take anything that is, you know, resemblant of diversity, equity, and inclusion, or to have discussions on race and racism in schools is up for grabs at this point.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:12:03]:
And

Dr. Carrie Sampson [00:12:03]:
that conversation and those dialogues end up usually happening at school board meetings, whether they're going to investigate their curriculum. School boards also oversee budgets. And so, you know, I think what we've seen emerge lately, conversations around where their resources are gonna be put towards social emotional learning, which is again another, you know, related piece to this anti CRT movement that, you know, are we gonna integrate that kind of curriculum in schools? Where are we gonna put resources, social workers, counselors in schools to support children around mental health and social emotional learning? Right now, school closures are are huge across the country. I mean, now that ESSER funding is gone, districts are kind of dealing with the reality of their budgets as is and in an environment where there's decreasing enrollment because of, you know, a variety of reasons, the emergence of charter schools, but also the emergence of universal voucher type of programs that have, attracted, you know, students outside, you know, to schools outside of their school districts or just siphoned money from public schools to private schools in many ways because, I mean, that's a whole another topic as well. But school boards are are making decisions about, you know, what schools to close. And, you know, on the face of it, it might not seem like an equity issue, but which schools usually close are those that are serving majority black and brown families, those that are serving lower income families, and so it ends up being, like, the consequences of that, whether intended or unintended, end up often being an issue of equity. So those are some examples. My book, I I was very focused particularly on the studies that I focus on in the three chapters, those three cases.

Dr. Carrie Sampson [00:13:53]:
I was very focused on policies for English learners, emerging bilinguals, emerging bilingual students, and to what extent boards were involved in supporting particular measures and resources, policies to either create opportunities for emerging bilingual and multilingual students or, you know, not. Those are usually decisions that are are focused on funding or are we gonna open a school that is a dual language bilingual school or are we gonna support policies that are around English immersion, which we know research is really clear that bilingual dual language programs are usually a lot more effective and asset based than than other ones. And so but they also require more resources sometimes. Board's votes and and support and even just getting those issues on the agenda are, you know, things that happen. And these are the things that happen at the board level that are really important.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:14:47]:
I feel like as I'm listening, we might be still experiencing almost like some modern day desegregation in some ways. Like, I'm I'm like, okay. You talked about universal vouchers, which we we can dig into that. We can talk about the funding. It can be a challenge as far as getting the resources. We can have a conversation about highly qualified teachers who has access to them. And and then you you said emerging, multilingual learners, funding and it's almost as if we're still in the sixties based off of what I'm hearing. I mean, it it am I missing something?

Dr. Carrie Sampson [00:15:21]:
No. I think that we're seeing a lot of that, actually. And this might, you know, be a little bit off topic. But like I mentioned, I'm part of this book club that's reading The Mothers of Mass Resistance. It's a history of white women politics. And in that, it's really laid out history, but of over, like, a 100 years of kind of a grassroots movement around white women. Right? And so many parallels to what's going on today in terms of the focus on schools and their focus on segregation efforts, and removing books. You know, there was even this part where, you know, they didn't they were pushing back against the creation of the US Department of Education.

Dr. Carrie Sampson [00:16:02]:
And so as we look to the Project 2025 and some of the plans of the new administration, we see just a lot of parallels to what is happening and maybe what is to come.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:16:15]:
Alright. Well, I don't want this episode to be all about, oh, what's wrong with the system. Right? Yeah. And and and why why things still haven't changed. So let's transition to more on the positive side. So what are some suggestions? How do what are some things do you have based off your research and your framework and things like that? What are some things that we could do to kinda shift those policies to make them more equitable in ex in the way that they're being operated, I guess?

Dr. Carrie Sampson [00:16:42]:
Yeah. Well, again, this book that, you know, is really focused on I'm speaking to perspective and current board members, and I'm thinking, what can they do in this role? Right? And this framework that I offer is based on 4 principles. 1, it's knowledge, understanding skills, and strategy. Knowledge and understanding is a much more personal, like, who are you in relationship to the community? You know, what is your positionality in this in this role? Right? And really understanding the community that you're serving, taking the time to, like, make those connections and and know what's going on in terms of issues of inequity within your community because it is so contextual. Yes. There's similarities across the country, but when we're talking about district level, it is very I mean, you know, demographics are shifting in districts across the country, and so really getting a a handle on who your community is, how what they want, what they need, and understanding kind of the the the broader issues. Right? And knowing who you're working with on the board, knowing your superintendent, and building that relationship. And then there's the skills and strategies.

Dr. Carrie Sampson [00:17:49]:
So part of the skills is being able to leverage state and federal policy making and policy makers. And I found that in my work, that was huge. I mean, state policies really drove what was going on in many ways at the district level, but board members had a lot of power in being able to kinda either leverage or push back or resist some of that if they did that together. And as well, the federal policy, there's you know, the at this point, with the US Department of Education and Office of Civil Rights, there's ways to kind of leverage those to push equity forward even if, like, you're the one board member. Sometimes there's only 1 or 2 board members who are really committed to equity. Right? And so you don't have the the votes maybe to push that through at the at your board level, but you can leverage in other ways. And you can pull in, and this is where that strategy piece comes in, is building, you know, coalitions. 1, within your district, but within your community.

Dr. Carrie Sampson [00:18:44]:
So pulling in community advocates when needed to help you push certain issues that are really important when it comes to equity. And in the book, I call that coalition politics, and I get into, like, why that's really difficult work. I mean, we're not talking about, you know, kumbaya moments. We're talking about, you know, really messy sometimes, you know, relationships, but they're really necessary when it comes to this work around equity and justice. And then being proactively responsive. So it's not if issues are gonna arise, if inequities are gonna arise, it's when. Because it always happens. You know what I mean? Like, there's gonna you know, if we live in a in a community, in a society where injustice is just ingrained in our many of our systems and sadly, in our schools.

Dr. Carrie Sampson [00:19:31]:
And so when these things arise, are you proactive, or are you gonna be responsive? Are you ready for it? And that's the proactive piece. And are you ready to respond to it? And that means listening, being able to shift when needed. And then the the part that I the part last part of the strategies that I I guess I'm most excited apart about is this idea of imagining possibilities. And in the my book, I quote from Robin Kelley's book, Freedom Dreams. And in his book, he says, love and imagination may be the most revolutionary impulses available to us, and yet we have failed to understand their political importance and respect them as powerful social forces. And in this part, and just in general, I really want school boards to center their work on love and imagination. Right? And thinking about how can we dream, how can we cultivate the dreams of our communities. This is just so critically important.

Dr. Carrie Sampson [00:20:30]:
I think many of our schools are constrained by structures and systems, including high stakes testing, school letter grades, curriculum companies, you know, the so called science of reading or science of learning. And we really don't make enough space to dream outside of these, but I think that boards can. And outside of these, but I think that boards can and must take the time to do this work and to think about what should our schools be like for our babies, how do we breathe life into our classrooms, how do we humanize spaces and create healthy schools for our communities? And I say this again, not just as a researcher of school boards, but really as a parent who wants that for her children. I want to see schools that are healthy. You know, that I don't really care about their letter grade. What I care about, yes, that they're learning, that they love reading. Can we measure that? You know, their love of reading. Can we measure the their feelings of safety and and value in the in our classrooms? Classrooms.

Dr. Carrie Sampson [00:21:26]:
And so being able to kinda push anything, school boards, you know, they're not superintendents. They don't have to do the day to day stuff, but they are kind of the outside perspective. And they can push districts to move beyond some of these constraints. And they can leverage states to allow districts to do that. And so I think there's a lot of possibilities there. And so I'm hoping that this book and this work inspires, you know, and guides them and motivates them to do this work because it's not easy. It's a much of a you know, in many ways, a voluntary position for many of them. And so, you know, it's a lot of hours.

Dr. Carrie Sampson [00:21:59]:
And so they these folks and I I applaud their their service in our communities. And I hope that as they do that work, they really kind of keep their eye on the prize. And this isn't a book to say stay in your lane. I mean, that's what a lot of boards are trained to do often. Stay in your lane. Don't mess with the superintendent. You know? Don't micromanage. And, yes, I do think there's a place for that, but I also, sometimes, you you gotta do what John Lewis says is get in good trouble.

Dr. Carrie Sampson [00:22:27]:
Right? And and, you know, if they're really representing our communities and they're identifying what's going on, like, sometimes they gotta get in good trouble and push our districts to do better.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:22:37]:
I can appreciate that First of all, I can appreciate your positivity because you sound hopeful. Right? You sound hopeful.

Dr. Carrie Sampson [00:22:46]:
Yes. I try. I'm hopeful.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:22:50]:
I'm trying

Dr. Carrie Sampson [00:22:50]:
to stay you know, allow that to kinda ground me in my work and not, you know, not fearful. So

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:22:56]:
Yeah. Yeah. Because yeah. So so I love to to be able to end on a positive note. You sound hopeful, and I can appreciate that. One of the things within your strategies that really stuck out to me was the importance building a coalition. Because at the end of the day, I mean, there are coalitions that are prepared, ready, got talking points, letters. They got all kind of stuff on a national level that are working against a lot of policies such as your book bans, such as your critical race theory stuff.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:23:28]:
Like, those those are already in place. So it makes a lot of sense to counteract a lot of that by building those coalitions. So here's a question I have and I'm assuming it's in the book. But if I feel like I'm the one person, like it's just I'm the only parent that's about that life, what do you suggest? Just jump on a Facebook group and create something? How do we build those kind of coalitions?

Dr. Carrie Sampson [00:23:52]:
Yeah. I think that's a great question. I felt like that before in some of this work. You know? And that's where, I mean, I guess, my own experience and the work of, you know, the research I've done and seeing other people do it, connecting to organizations that are are doing good work in your community, organizations that align you might not align perfectly with, but, essentially, you know, like, the bigger picture stuff. Right? Are they supporting, for instance, public schools and issues of equity? And so I think every community, especially now, has I mean, organizations have emerged out of thin air lately. Really trying to figure out how to do this work together. It is collective, and it is individual work in a sense that there's still as that one parent, like, come you know, you have a lot of power that maybe your teachers don't have or a district leader who, you know, like, folks who need that paycheck don't have. And so you can also make good trouble in some ways.

Dr. Carrie Sampson [00:24:48]:
You know? And just also supporting teachers. I know as

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:24:51]:
a

Dr. Carrie Sampson [00:24:51]:
parent, I'm very explicit with the teachers of my kids. Hey. I I want you to integrate culturally relevant curriculum for my kids. I want you to have diverse books for them to read. You know, that as a parent, that's really important to me. And I also think that they need to hear that because maybe they're hearing the other side of that where folks are saying, no. Don't put anything. And I want to make sure that that's not the only narrative that's being told, and that's not the only narrative they're hearing.

Dr. Carrie Sampson [00:25:19]:
And so I know I can say things that maybe other folks can't, and I can also try to either at least add to the narrative and hopefully shift the narrative so that our voices different voices are heard in the in the full kind of discussion around all of these issues that are are really politically contentious.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:25:39]:
Love it. Yeah. Thank you again. I I I've learned a lot and, I I'll say, you know, I feel like I could talk to you for for hours. But we got listeners out there as well and I know they just want some of the the big pieces. So again, folks, grab yourself a copy of the book so that you can learn more. Keri, I I'd love for you to take us home with one final word of advice to our listeners.

Dr. Carrie Sampson [00:26:00]:
Thank you. Well, one, I appreciate the space again, Sheldon. I guess I would say I want listeners whether I don't know, you know, if you're a teacher, if you're a district administrator, if you're a school principal, or if you're a board member thinking about becoming a board member. I think that there's a lot of power in these spaces, so I'd say pay attention to school boards, pay attention to school board meetings, pay attention to what's on the agenda, connect with your school board, contact, reach out to your board members. There are not always a lot of voices that do reach out, and sometimes it's only those certain voices that, you know, get heard because they're the loudest. But don't be afraid to write that email and to show up and make a public comment to make sure that your voice, your experience is being heard. I think that they are these are some of the the best places and and spaces to advance equity work, and they're public. I mean, these are supposed to be spaces that are public and transparent.

Dr. Carrie Sampson [00:27:03]:
And so being able to strategically think about how to use that space because really these are our schools, you know, these are our communities and so speaking up, identifying, speaking out against issues of inequity is really important in these spaces.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:27:18]:
Loving it. Speak up. The work, The work continues. Yes. Be ready to do that good trouble. John Lewis, rest in peace. Once again, I'm speaking with Doctor. Kerry Sampson, author of Navigating School Board Politics, A Framework for Advancing Equity.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:27:34]:
If we have some folks that wanna connect with you, what's the best way to reach you online?

Dr. Carrie Sampson [00:27:37]:
You can find me at ASU Google ASU and Carrie Sampson. You can find my profile, my email address. I'm also on LinkedIn, Facebook. Oh, I just got on Blue Sky. So Yeah. You can find me on those those areas. In those areas.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:27:54]:
Alright. Well, again, links all in the show notes. Folks, thank you so much for your time.

Dr. Carrie Sampson [00:27:59]:
Alright. Thank you.

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