Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:00:00]:
Welcome, advocates, to another episode of the Leading Equity Podcast, a podcast that focuses on supporting educators with the tool and resources necessary to ensure equity at their schools. Today's special guest is Tarah Sean Gibson. So Without further ado, Tara Shawn, thank you so much for joining us today.

TaraShaun Gipson [00:00:18]:
Thank you for having me.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:00:20]:
Pleasure is mine. I'm excited for today's topic because this is a personal topic for myself, so we're gonna get all into it. But before we do, I I'd love for you to share a little bit about yourself and what you currently do.

TaraShaun Gipson [00:00:31]:
Alright. I am Tarishawn Gibson, formerly Kane. I am the executive director of the Black Principles Network, which is powered by Surge Institute and was relaunched by Surge Institute in 2022. I am a forever principal. At the end of the day, I served in school leadership for over 10 years. I'm still very passionate about that work, and my overall goal is to figure out how can we make this role more sustainable for our school leaders.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:00:57]:
Alright. Okay. Well, let's do it then because, you know, you and I were talking before we hit record and I shared with you that I'm recently back into schools as a school leader. And I'm a charter high school principal in Arizona, and I love what I do. So when I came across your topic of how to avoid burnout specifically for black principals, I was all over it. So I wanna start there. What do you have to share with us in regards to the importance of supporting our black principles in regards to burnout?

Tarah Sean Gibson [00:01:28]:
So the very first thing I wanna mention is just why it is important that we support our black school leaders, and that is because, like, when you think about the system and how it was designed, it was not designed with us in mind. Right? Even statistically, we say 77% of our k to 12 principals are white. When you think about that and you think about what you're learning in schools, it is built from that lens. There's so much they don't teach you in principal school. And so for me, it is very personal because I served as a school leader during the pandemic, during George Floyd, during all of these things. And not only was I experiencing it as a a school leader, I had a very nuanced experience than some of my counterparts. And I led in a school that was predominantly black and Latinx. And so for us, it was not only am I dealing with this stuff, but then I have to go I have to deal with it personally, and then I have to go and lead my school through that.

Tarah Sean Gibson [00:02:31]:
But they don't teach you that in principal school. I leaned very heavily on resources, and I and that's when I found the Black Principals Network, trying to identify what are some ways that I can heal myself, but also lead my school through something that we had never experienced before. I feel like I did that successfully. My students would say that, but what I also recognize is it was taking a toll on me. Life was happening for me. I lost 5 immediate family members just in 2020. I lost one of my staff members because we know that our black and brown communities were disproportionately impacted by COVID. And so I'm having to lead through that and not really dealing with what's happening on the inside, and I did get burned out.

Tarah Sean Gibson [00:03:14]:
It was very hard for me to leave my school because I love my school. You know, oftentimes, you hear about people that people think that when you leave your school, it is because something has happened. There is some sort of scandal or drama or you and your staff. I love my school. I love my students. I love my community, but I had to make a real decision about myself and what was I gonna do because I also ended up being pregnant in during COVID. Right? And so it was like, how do I lead through this by also having healthy boundaries? Because I didn't have them. I was the person that they called.

TaraShaun Gipson [00:03:49]:
And you and you want to be the kind of leader that you would want, but sometimes if you're not creating those those healthy boundaries or leaning on your school community, really focusing on distributive leadership and building the capacity of others so that you don't have to do everything by yourself, then you will lead to being burnt out. That is kind of what this was built on. The Black Principles Network preexisted before Surge, but what it when they when it was created, it was knowing that it was gonna have to find a home somewhere. And Surg Institute, of course, is known for space making, affinity spaces, community, all of that kind of stuff. So when I did hear about the opportunity to lead the Black Principles Network, I am like, how do I put some of the things in practice that will keep our people in these roles? Because our babies need to see themselves in school leader. One of the things that we focus on is how do you lead authentically? Like, embracing your identity, embracing the culture, all of that, and and how do you bring that to your role? Because sometimes we we're often thinking that we have to leave that part behind, or there is this idea of professionalism or this idea of what school leadership looks like. And that in itself, when you're not being authentically yourself, can take its toll on you. What we wanna do is model for our kids that you don't leave parts of yourself behind, but that you can be a whole person in this role.

Tarah Sean Gibson [00:05:22]:
Because in school leadership, you often compartmentalize. This is me as a school leader, but this is me when I'm at home. But the reality is you have to figure out what does that work life harmony look like. And there are parts of you that your kids and your staff and your communities need to see that will help further the relationship and make them feel safe so that they can open up to other possibilities as well. I've talked about distributed leadership. That's really key, but within that, after you're looking at your self as a school leader, you're also looking at how are you viewed as a school leader. Not just how you think what you think of yourself, but how are you showing up within your school community. What does that look like? How are people receiving you? And what does that mean, and how does that impact your school community and the and the culture that you're trying to build? Those are a couple of the things that we really focus on.

Tarah Sean Gibson [00:06:17]:
It's not an external. We start internally because we have to deal with what's happening within ourselves. It could be previous trauma. It could be hurt or harm from what we experienced while we were in school, or it could be even like if you were a teacher, the kind of leadership that you saw. Our goal is to identify what is the kind of leader that you want to be, that you feel like your school needs, and then how do we build that capacity within you so that you can then empower the staff and the students and the communities that you serve.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:06:54]:
So those are great answers, and I'm glad that we're starting there because as you were speaking, it really got me thinking about some of my own experiences. So this is my second, I guess, go around being a school principal. I had been out of the school principal realm for several years. And my first set of like, the first school I went to was predominantly white as far as staff and in addition to the students themselves and the community and everything. So I felt like I was in Oregon, so I felt like this is was one of the challenges that I had was the authenticity that you had mentioned because I was doing a lot of code switching. When I first got there, I was kind of just, like, you know, being myself, But then I kept having to explain myself. And then I was like, am I perpetuating stereotypes? So that was in the back of my mind. But then when I moved here to Phoenix on the next round, like, my school is predominantly black and Brown.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:07:49]:
And so it's just a different set of challenges, if you will, when it comes to now that I look like a lot of my students, it's making sure that they're getting everything that they need and supporting them because I feel like if I don't do it, who will? So there's there's 2 totally different dynamics that I'm that I have experienced as a school leader. So I know that the folks that are listening out there may be able to fit into one of those buckets. Yeah. I'm curious from your take. If I'm a school principal, let's start with the first scenario. As a school principal, if they come to you and say, look, I'm working in a predominantly white area. I feel like I have to code switch all the time. It drains me.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:08:30]:
Anything that happens like a George Floyd situation or something like that, I feel like I don't have anyone to talk to or engage in conversation with, or I feel like I have to operate a certain way as a leader. Because if I come too too strong towards anything racial related, oh, look at him. What is he doing? But if I don't do enough, then I feel bad. What are some of the advice you give to principals that are in those type of situations?

Tarah Sean Gibson [00:08:54]:
We're talking about school leaders that feel like they're kinda toeing the line. Right? That they can't

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:09:01]:
at once maybe or let just barely any representation of other black staff or students in their community.

Tarah Sean Gibson [00:09:07]:
Yeah. My question is typically, like, what is the thing? Who are you? Like, who are you authentically? And I think that sometimes we associate that with speaking a certain way or bringing up situations that may be challenging for others. And for me, what I always recommend is be who you traditionally deep down are. Who are you as a person, and how does that show up in your school leadership? So for me, it is what I offer people is what does your school community need? And they need you as you are. Now there are things like I'm not saying go in here and you're talking crazy or things like that, but there if there is something that directly impacts how you show up as a school leader and how you show up as your authentic self, then that that to me is you not giving your full self. So what do I mean by that? How you talk is how you talk. Right? There are certain things that are just authentically you. And when you aren't showing up as your authentic self, that shows through as well.

Tarah Sean Gibson [00:10:20]:
Like, people sometimes don't receive you. They don't trust you because they know you're not showing up as the person who you truly are. Now, when it comes to stereotypes, I feel like that is other people's stuff. And so I don't want people to carry other people's stuff and let that prevent them from being themselves. What feels natural to you? How are you relating to your school? How are you relating to your community? Sometimes that's what they are looking for. That's how you strengthen relationships because they're like, oh, I under you understand where I'm coming from. You too have experienced that. And so for me, it is really about when I say showing up authentically, it is also about sharing parts of yourself, your world.

Tarah Sean Gibson [00:11:05]:
What has made you the leader that you are? What experiences did you have in school? What neighborhood experiences did you have? It could be Greek life. What are you exposing them to that you all may have in common, but also to broaden the definition of what it means to be who you are? What are some other things that you can expose them to that they may not normally be accustomed to?

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:11:29]:
So what I'm hearing is be you no matter what, whatever space you're in. Now, okay. Okay. I hear that. I hear that. So let's say I'm being myself no matter what, and that doesn't maybe come across well with the folks that are the constituents regarding the school. Again, stereotypes. I wanted to touch on the part where you mentioned stereotypes or other people's stuff, because I wanted to make sure I understood what did you mean when you say this other people's stuff? Because if I want to authentically be myself, which I'm with you on that.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:12:02]:
But what if me being myself, quote, unquote, goes wrong? What kind of advice can you give to individuals who might be experiencing those kind of things?

Tarah Sean Gibson [00:12:11]:
So my question will be in what way? I think that there are still standards of excellence, not perfectionism that you do in the role. I think that when I say bring your whole self to the role or bring all of you are who you are, that is your experiences and things like that. My question would be, like, what is not landing? So as Like, I had to

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:12:34]:
so for let me jump in. For for example, I had I had to I found myself speaking the way I normally speak. Right? Like, if I was at a barber shop somewhere around, you know, just where I grew up, those kind of things. And I would say certain phrases that bad mean good and good meaning bad, those kind of things. And and folks were like, what? What do you mean by like, what is that? So then I I kept having to define a lot of stuff, kept having to give a lot of background and context what I meant when I meant by saying something. No. No. I wasn't referring to it this way.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:13:06]:
No. I was actually referring to it. So I had to explain myself so much that I just got tired of it. After, like, a few months, I was like, okay. I'm sick of having to define and explain every single thing. I'm just gonna talk that's more understandable to this group of folks that I'm working with because I I just it's just too taxing just to to explain and give all this context.

Tarah Sean Gibson [00:13:29]:
Yeah. I hear you. I think that for me, it is like, what is the message you're trying to get across? Like, you know, that is important in how you choose to communicate. It is knowing a little bit of your audience, so it might be that if you what would have happened if you would have been, like I don't wanna say pre explained, but if you said, like, oh, that was a bad outfit.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:13:52]:
Yeah. And

Tarah Sean Gibson [00:13:52]:
by bad, I mean good.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:13:53]:
Right. Right. Right.

Tarah Sean Gibson [00:13:54]:
And then so you are also giving them a little bit of the knowledge. Because remember I said that I believe that knowledge helps. Right? I feel like there it's okay to clear up misconceptions or miss you things like that because you're expanding their knowledge base, but I don't feel like that is necessarily your responsibility. So I do understand, like, that delicate line and also doing what is best for you. But does that mean that you're not authentically being yourself because you're not saying like, bad? I wouldn't necessarily say that. It is when you take on a whole different persona and you have your you have that imposter syndrome or you have your representative that is coming and speaking for you.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:14:34]:
Okay. Completely

Tarah Sean Gibson [00:14:35]:
different dial you know, like, when you don't feel comfortable being yourself, like, if there is tension that you're feeling when you're communicating or you feel like you have to turn on this different person, that is when I would say that you are not being authentically yourself.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:14:50]:
Gotcha.

Tarah Sean Gibson [00:14:51]:
That is probably where I would have the problem. So I think that for you, you might have been like, okay. This may not be necessarily the audience in which I I want to continue to say those things, and that's okay too. I think that's fine, but it's more than just your speak. I think the problem comes in when we have these these predetermined ideas of what professionalism looks like or what is acceptable and is not acceptable and is only strictly based off of some sort of deficit thinking for who you are as a person. So you feel like you have to do something better. That's when it becomes a problem.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:15:30]:
I'm with you. Yeah. Yeah. That that that's that's a good explanation. You kinda got me thinking like, okay. I had a conversation with an individual. He was, I think he was a black I think he was a AP. I think he's an assistant principal.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:15:42]:
And some advice that he gave me a few years ago was, like, Sheldon, there's always a time and a place. He said, you you can still be yourself all the time, but there's certain things that you can say. There's a time and a place for that. Yeah. And just be ready for whatever type of response that you're gonna get, but that doesn't mean that you can't be yourself. We just consider where you're at. Sometimes I just I will honestly, I I would just get excited, Tara Sean. I I I would just be excited.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:16:06]:
If I'm in the moment, I forget where I'm at, and then I'll just face

Tarah Sean Gibson [00:16:10]:
the talk.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:16:11]:
And then everybody's looking at me like,

Tarah Sean Gibson [00:16:12]:
what what did he just say?

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:16:13]:
I was like, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Tarah Sean Gibson [00:16:15]:
Yeah. Let me rephrase. Let me rephrase. You have to know your audience. Right? You gotta know your audience. But in that, again, for me, it is just like this. Feeling like who you are is a deficit. You have to be somebody different.

Tarah Sean Gibson [00:16:28]:
That is where, again, the problem lies. But I'm very familiar with every audience may receive a different level. Yeah. But it is definitely still going to be me.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:16:39]:
Gotcha. Okay. Yeah. At the end of the day, you're still being yourself. But like you said, when you're just coming with a totally different person, an avatar, if you will, that's representing yourself in school, then that's that's the problem. Let's shift gears because, like I said, there's 2 scenarios right now. Like, before I was working on a predominantly white space, and now I'm working in a predominantly of color space. One of my campuses, I would say, is majority black.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:17:00]:
My other campus is Hispanic. And so one of the things that I I and I just started, so I can't say that I have a bunch of challenges. It's just more of, again, being proactive because I love my school and I don't wanna get to a place of burnout. So so if I'm being proactive and then thinking about it from that since one of the things I see is, like, a lot of my students have additional needs because we're technically considered an alternative school. And so a lot of students yes. They wanna come to us if they're not mandated or forced to come to us, and they want their high school diploma, but usually, they have some sort of a story that brought

Tarah Sean Gibson [00:17:38]:
them here.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:17:38]:
And so I want to not take on that compassion fatigue because I'm listening to my students and thinking about their consent, their situations. And I'm considering, like, how do I turn it off, I guess, is maybe the question that I want to ask when it comes to school leadership. When you are faced with a lot of challenges from some of your students, you can identify yourself with in some of their lives and their family. And then I gotta go home to my own space, and I you know, whatever level of privilege I have, are there some tips that you can give to administrators that might be in that type of situation?

Tarah Sean Gibson [00:18:13]:
Yeah. First thing, let me just honor and acknowledge that compassion fatigue is real. That is a real thing. It is a real issue, and it can burn you out. Again, mentioning before what I said, you often wanna be the kind of leader that you would have wanted either when you were a teacher or when you were a student or that you hope that your kids will have. And so sometimes what that can do is create these situations where you're taking on too much and you are internalizing those things. So how we create health in addition to creating healthy boundaries, which I think is very, very is very necessary in this space, I think it's also about creating spaces for there to be sharing. So that is not all just dumped on the school leader.

Tarah Sean Gibson [00:18:59]:
How do we create spaces within the school community for people to share, for people to learn from each other? And that could be students and or it can also be staff. Right? Because hopefully, we're modeling with our staff things that they can do with their students as well. So to me, it is like, let's find a space for this. Because sometimes people just need to be heard. They need to feel seen, valued, and heard. Those are the things. So how do we create that space for them to share of themselves enough or feel comfortable sharing enough of themselves where they can also build community? What wraparound supports do we have for them as well within the school community? How are we building our student leaders to share some of themselves and use their experiences to motivate others and to grow and learn from them. This can be hard, but we have to get the right people in place, the right programs in place, those kinds of things so that you're sharing that load.

Tarah Sean Gibson [00:19:59]:
For us, it was very important that each of our students had somebody that they felt like they could connect to. Each adult was responsible for, these are your babies. At the end, people had the sense of belonging. Our students felt like they had somebody that they could talk to because it can't always be you. Because the other thing is if something happens, right, to you, you're not available, then we don't want that on the student as well where they feel like they're alone and they don't have or or the staff. So that's how I would particularly handle those situations is by, let's create some space. Let's build some affinity spaces, community groups, spaces for them to share, places where they feel like they can share their story with others in hopes that they from a place of power though. I feel like those help because you can't take it home.

Tarah Sean Gibson [00:20:52]:
No. You you cannot take it home or and it's difficult as a school leader to turn it off. It's like, it's not a faucet, like, where you can be like, yep, nope. I know or they care about what is happening at the school. But what you can do is build some structures where it doesn't always have to fall solely on you while also creating the structures where the kids don't kids and adults don't feel neglected. I hope that makes sense.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:21:18]:
Well, what are those structures that we can create?

Tarah Sean Gibson [00:21:21]:
P circles. Again, wrap around services. Sharing a little bit of your story sometimes helps as well to build those safe spaces in the community. It could be fun activities as well for to give them the opportunity to take to take some of that weight off. What does your counseling situation look like? What do those services look like? What social working services, programs do you have? There's a lot of stuff available for students as it relates to that. Social, emotional, like, what how are we building them socially, emotionally? Those are some of the ways that we can build community while also still supporting our community.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:21:57]:
Thank you. Alright. I I like to get some specifics. I appreciate you on that. You mentioned, like, the life coach, for example, supporting staff. I wanted to transition a little bit from a, let's say, a superintendent side of things or a principal supervisor. Let's just call it that. What are some things for professional growth or that supervisors could be mindful of for black principles in regards to their growth? And then not only their growth, but just making sure they have all the tools that they need in order to be successful in their community.

Tarah Sean Gibson [00:22:29]:
Yeah. So affinity groups are critical because there's nothing like having somebody that is experiencing this, not just in theory, but also in implementation that you could share resources and things like that. So I feel like if there are spaces, specifically for school leaders, we always hear about student spaces. We always hear about how you're building it for staff, but nobody really thinks about the leader. So what are some of the things that we can do for them? Like I said, affinity spaces, but also allowing them to grow outside of the district. Be a part of some of these other, leadership accelerated programs, conferences, allow them to extend their learning, not just as it relates to the role, but also SEO for them. I feel like those are the places that we often miss for school leaders. And then also listening to them.

Tarah Sean Gibson [00:23:22]:
What are they saying that they need? That's a big thing for us. And we use surveys, focus groups. We wanna know what is it that you need as school leaders so that we could build the content and the scope and sequence based off of that.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:23:35]:
Do you have any idea as far as what the statistics look like? I know you said that as far as administrators is about 70 something percent white. Do you know the breakdown as far as the gender? You know, how many black males and or black females are in the administrative role?

Tarah Sean Gibson [00:23:51]:
Specifically to the gender, I can tell you that for black school leadership in the k twelve space, I think in 2021, it was 9.4%. 9.4. Mhmm. Was, black school leaders. As it relates to the specifics of male versus female in that space, that is not something that I have readily available, but I do know there's significantly less as it relates to that. So but what we also know is that our babies represent the global major majority. Right? We have before, they're saying 77, 78%, depending on the study of our prince of our principals in the k twelve space are white, but we have, like, over only 45% of our students identify as white, which means that the global majority is what is represented. And so how do we put our babies how do we create these spaces so that our babies can continue to see themselves? Because you can't be what you don't see.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:24:51]:
I think one one of the big takeaways from today's conversation, just think about that statistic, 9 points. So less than 10% of our staff or administrators are of color. And we're talking about school principals. I I need to be clear. Okay. Because I know we we we always be deans and and Yes. But, the the actual school leadership site and one of the pieces that really stood out for me just listening to you was just the fact that, you know, just as a support to those principles, it's just giving them praise and just let them know that, hey. You're doing a good job.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:25:26]:
If if all they're receiving is, you know, do this do this better and they're not getting enough praise, I could see how that could can contribute to some of that burnout because it's like, oh, shoot. I'm not doing a good job. I'm already feeling like I'm, an idle space or island in the space because I'm I know on a national scale, I'm barely represented. Or if I'm in a network of other school leaders or a school district where there's other school leaders, I'm the only one. There's already that. And then, of course, I'm being compared to their statistics, the the academic progress, and all their stats and scores and things. And, again, I'm all by myself. So just hearing that praise part, I think, was a probably, like, one of the biggest takeaways for me.

Tarah Sean Gibson [00:26:09]:
Yeah. It's a it's it's you know, school leadership in itself is very isolating, gives you very lonely because you you don't feel like you can share. Like, nobody understands the weight that you're carrying of the school. Like, the success of the school as well as the failures of the school Yeah. Still fall on you. You're responsible for it. And so when I'm saying making sure that you are giving praise, it's it's it's it's praise, but it's also just acknowledgment that this work is hard. Acknowledgment that we know that oftentimes our black school leaders get put in schools that, you know, may have represent a stereotypical community.

Tarah Sean Gibson [00:26:51]:
Right? Like, oh, I think there there is even, like, some research that said that I think that of those 10% of the black school leaders, that only, like, 3% of them were in high performing schools.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:27:04]:
Right?

Tarah Sean Gibson [00:27:05]:
So you get pigeonholed to a heavier load to carry. So what structures and supports are you putting in with your school community, with those that are carrying that heavier weight for them to be successful?

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:27:17]:
Alright. Well, that's that's some good some good knowledge there. And you know what? I've I've learned a lot. And again, selfishly, I I was drawn to this topic as a principal who's who's returning back to the school setting, and and I'm a black. I identify as black. So I just I was excited for today's conversation. I'd love for you to take home take us home with any final words of advice you wanna give to our listeners. First of

Tarah Sean Gibson [00:27:42]:
all, I just wanna celebrate you and say thank you. Thank you for doing the work that matters. We see you. We honor you. We we respect you, and we're grateful for you. When I talk to my school leaders and we're always on the fence of what is right for our babies and things like that, I often say if it's not good enough for the babies that we have at home, it's not good enough for the ones that we serve. So using that as your moral compass, would it be good for your kids leading through that? The other thing that I wanna say is if you are looking for space and community, please make sure you come to the Surge Institute. Surgeinstitute.org is our website.

Tarah Sean Gibson [00:28:18]:
We have that for all leaders of color. And specifically, if you identify as black school leader, the Black Principals Network is also available as well. And the leadership collaborative applications are opening January 1, so it could be you.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:28:33]:
Thank you very much. Folks, we'll leave links in the show notes. Tara Shawn, it has truly been a pleasure. Thank you so much for your time.

Tarah Sean Gibson [00:28:39]:
Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate you.

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