Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:00:00]:
Welcome, advocates, to another episode of the Leading Equity Podcast, a podcast that focuses on supporting educators with the tools and resources necessary to ensure equity at their goals. Today's special guest is Jamie Herbert. So without further ado, Jamie, thank you so much for joining us today.

Jamee Herbert [00:00:17]:
Thanks for having me.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:00:18]:
Pleasure is mine. I'm looking forward to today's conversation. We're gonna dig into some data today about early childhood. But before we get into that, I'd love for you to share a little bit about yourself and what you currently do.

Jamee Herbert [00:00:28]:
Yeah. So I'm Jamie Herbert. I'm the CEO and cofounder of a company called BridgeCare provides data and technology infrastructure for early care and education, also known as ECE, also known as childcare and preschool. It goes by a lot of a lot of inconsistent terms, but that's where we spend our time really birth to 5 primarily and supporting at the system level to create really good software experiences for families trying to navigate the system for the providers who offer subsidies and all the folks who try to make the system work really well.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:01:00]:
Great. Now I got a question. So do you primarily target or work with parents to make sure that they, I guess, have the right language or enough information as they make choices on care services? Is that what I heard?

Jamee Herbert [00:01:14]:
So we never sell any products to families and childcare providers or, like, direct service providers Mhmm. Where they are users of our systems. They're beneficiaries of our systems, but they use it for free. The the people who pay us, who are our customers, are the county, state, sometimes nonprofit level, where they're creating a a system a support system for their whole community. So a really common thing we do, for example, is provide the software for universal preschool. So if a state or a city offers universal preschool, they've passed legislation and they have funding. Places like the state of Colorado, the the city of Cambridge, Massachusetts, they have universal preschool, and they use our software to allow families to apply, providers to register, place families, make sure they get paid, all those different parts of the system.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:02:08]:
Alright. So I'm more of a secondary guy. So I I I'm not familiar with universal preschool. Can you break that down a little bit more?

Jamee Herbert [00:02:15]:
Yeah. It's actually not a consistent term as nothing is in early care and education.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:02:21]:
Okay.

Jamee Herbert [00:02:21]:
But what what it tends to be most agreed upon is that there's no income qualification. If a child is meets the age criteria and they live in the specific geographic zone, then it is universally available. For example, in Colorado, all 4 year olds have free access to preschool through the universal preschool program.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:02:41]:
Okay. And so there's so your organization creates the data to make sure that it's accessible or to show why it's necessary?

Jamee Herbert [00:02:49]:
The software. So, like, the family goes and they apply the BridgeCare software. It's not called BridgeCare. It's called whatever that Colorado system, you know, wants to call it. It's called white labeled. But they're interacting with our sis our technology to get into the school that they wanna go to. That's

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:03:07]:
Gotcha. Okay. So the software. So you created the software that organizations are utilizing in order okay. Okay. Okay. I'm with you now. Okay.

Jamee Herbert [00:03:14]:
I'm with you now. Yeah. We don't we don't pay for it. Tax payers pay for it. The the universal preschool program. We don't provide the education, the school districts, child care providers, community providers. It's a mixed delivery program. Most of our clients are mixed delivery programs, which means that multiple different kinds of child providers of care and education are able to participate.

Jamee Herbert [00:03:38]:
And so families can more easily navigate those options through our software and then get placed in those programs.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:03:44]:
Okay. Alright. Alright. Thank you for, again, for indulging me for a few moments because, again, my I I am a secondary person, so I'm trying to figure out the early childhood stuff. I try to learn as much as I can. So and I know folks listening out there. I can't be the only one that was curious.

Jamee Herbert [00:04:01]:
No one really thinks about this part of the system. That's why I'm here. I'm excited to talk to you because a lot of folks, you know, think about there's not enough funding to pay teachers, and there's not, you know, there's not it's too expensive for families, and it is. Right? Yeah. But there's a lot that goes into how do we get to progress. And, also, it isn't just about the funding. It is also about how does the system work. How do families even know what's available to them? How do they actually jump through the hoops? Like, some of our clients before they start working with us, the family has to fax their application.

Jamee Herbert [00:04:35]:
Right? So those kind of things create very large barriers for families even when the funding is available sometimes. So that's that's the world that we live in day in and day out.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:04:44]:
Yeah. That's the world we live in, and there's there's a lot out there. So I'm glad that software is available out there and and so that folks are utilizing it. And it just got me thinking about policies because universal preschool is a policy that is implemented, say, for example, in Colorado. The question that I wanna start off with is why is it so important to make sure that we have real time accurate data when we're trying to create or look into creating policies in early childhood?

Jamee Herbert [00:05:17]:
Yeah. Well, one of our clients who I I love to highlight them as an example of the the value of data is, the first class pre k program in Alabama. It's for a very long time been ranked the number one quality pre k program in the country. That's for primarily for 4 year olds, although they've expanded it quite a lot, and they have other birth to 3 programs and and more now. But that program started by making the case for using a small amount of funding from the federal government to start a pre k program, and then they prove with data the impact of reduced costs over time and the beneficial impact on the children who went through that pre k program by 3rd grade. And because of the use of data to make that case, they have year over year over year expanded the program and are one of the highest, if not the highest quality program in the country. So the state of Alabama does not have the same reputation for their k twelve education system or their child care system. Their pre k program is really a testament to the use of data.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:06:23]:
So so okay. So I like that you said that. Right? Because I wouldn't say that one more time. I don't I don't think my audience heard you when you said that the early childhood program is what I heard was essentially doing better than the k twelve structure. Is that is that what I

Jamee Herbert [00:06:39]:
I mean, by by rankings

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:06:41]:
Okay.

Jamee Herbert [00:06:41]:
That I don't do. I'm not a qualitative judge of program quality. We're a software company. But but based on, you know, the rankings of quality by experts, I don't know exactly where their k twelve system falls and their childcare system falls, but but they don't rank number 1 like their pre k program does. And they are all run by different departments.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:07:02]:
Yeah. Because, like, how many times have we heard elementary teachers, oh, the early childhood folks. They're not preparing the kids for kindergarten or 1st grade or and then you got your middle school. Oh, we'll see the elementary folks. This is why the the reading levels are low. Elementary folks aren't doing what they're supposed to do. And in high school, the same thing. Right? So what I'm hearing is one of so for me, what I'm when I think about the importance of data and importance of understanding why policies and utilizing data to create policies is so important is because early childhood is is the start.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:07:37]:
Right? That is what sets the tone.

Jamee Herbert [00:07:40]:
Yep.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:07:40]:
So if if we're not starting off right, then we're playing catch up going forward.

Jamee Herbert [00:07:44]:
Absolutely. And that's that's the case they made and why they've been so successful growing that program.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:07:48]:
Okay. So that that was that that's one reason. Are there other reasons why collecting the data is very important when it comes to creating those policies?

Jamee Herbert [00:07:57]:
Yeah. I think as somebody who has committed my life to, you know, growing the impact of an an investment in early care and education, I believe deeply in the need for that investment. Not all investment is equal. Right? And so you can invest a lot of money, a lot of taxpayer, hard earned, hard advocated for dollars, and and not invest those wisely. That is possible. Right? Not every pre k program in the country has the same results in terms of long term outcomes for children. And so how those those programs are implemented matters a lot, and data is a really important and and not just in terms of pre k programs, but just in general, having a solid understanding of where are the gaps, how can we efficiently use the funds we have, And then how do we track to make sure that those funds are being invested the best they possibly can? Because we currently live in a world of scarcity where there is not enough to go around, so we have to use those funds effectively, and, hopefully, it gets us to abundance in child care and early education.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:09:04]:
Okay. Okay. Okay. Alright. So let's help me out and understand what type of data points are most common when it comes to looking at these policies? Is it maybe enrollment? Is social economics? What what are some some data points that you're seeing a lot?

Jamee Herbert [00:09:19]:
Well, in in childcare, there's just a complete dearth of data. It's just a complete absence. And and it's really difficult, especially because in contrast to k twelve, which is all receives at least the public education system all receives public funding. The child care system is more of like a private market kind of a controlled private marketplace. Some providers accept subsidy funding, but not all. So it's difficult or impossible that there are generally not requirements around a lot of data reporting from the child care providers because they're just private businesses doing their thing. You know? And there's no strict requirements. There's no carrot.

Jamee Herbert [00:09:59]:
It's very difficult to compel them to give that data to the state. So

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:10:03]:
you think that is? Why I mean, again, we we said starting early sets the tone. Why do you think this is the case?

Jamee Herbert [00:10:10]:
Well, it's another it's going back to your other question. It's another reason why data is so important because it helps us move past culture discrepancies and political, you know, getting bogged down in politics. And it helps us just say, does this investment make sense? What are the outcomes? What is the ROI on this? Rather than, you know, questions I've heard along the way in my journey with BridgeCare of, like, well, don't moms just wanna stay home anyway? Is it even sad that people have to work? I mean, like, there are just cultural questions that come up that we get bogged down in. Things of, like, just differences in morality or or preferences around family raising. Mhmm. Mhmm. Rather than just looking at what about child outcomes? What about the workforce? What about our economy? Right? What about school readiness? There are when you look at the data, you see where there is a need, what the impact of that investment is, and you kind of can move past getting bogged down in the he said, she said, what do we think about childcare? Yeah.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:11:12]:
I I think that's a good point. I didn't think about it until you started talking about it. It's it's you have a lot of legislators, for example, or folks that are in positions of power that create these policies that believe, you know, a parent should, you know, a lot of times, women, the mom, should raise the child. And then when they get to kindergarten or 1st grade, whatever it is, then it's it's up to the school at that point. They're okay with handing off. And then so there's a lot of mixed beliefs as far as, is it okay or right, the right thing to do to allow a caregiver, care provider to essentially raise children.

Jamee Herbert [00:11:49]:
Yeah. And there's a historical divide between care and education. And I think what we know now so much more than we did when we start the system was created decades ago. All of that is the foundation, like you were saying, that, you know, you're just playing catch up when you're in k 12 or higher ed. So that investment is is worth it as a society. But but, yeah, we can get bogged down in other discussions. We lose sight of that.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:12:14]:
Alright. Okay. So I know you mentioned that Alabama, for example, has a really strong I forgot what do you call it. 1st class program.

Jamee Herbert [00:12:25]:
That's the name of it. 1st class pre k.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:12:28]:
1st class pre k.

Jamee Herbert [00:12:29]:
I didn't name it that. Yeah.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:12:31]:
So so for example so I guess, are are they considered maybe the staple when it comes to following, like, this is the model program that we should look for. So I'm I'm just thinking for individuals who are looking to run programs, that are looking to make, like, some changes, things like that. Like, hey. I'd oh, okay. I hear hear what Sheldon and Jamie are saying. Maybe it is time for us to kinda revisit some of the data and look at Would you recommend, like, that program or are there other programs that have some models that are like, okay. This is probably some folks that you wanna look into as far as what they're doing in in their programs.

Jamee Herbert [00:13:06]:
Yeah. All of our clients run their programs a little differently. I think Colorado is another amazing example of a really equity driven program, that really tries to balance family preferences, mixed delivery, and quality and funding. Alabama's program is not is not universal. That that's that's just not the policy that's been passed there, but they do they do have quite a lot of seats for children. I think one thing that's really great about Alabama's program is that they fund the classroom, and so it gives a lot of stability to the care provider, the school, or the provider of education because they know what funding they're going to get. It's not based on just how many children are in the classroom. It's actually funding the classroom so they can fund the staffing.

Jamee Herbert [00:13:48]:
And I think that's a huge part of what contributes to their high quality. A lot of it does just come down to staff turnover and adequately supporting with funding the workforce of care and education.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:13:58]:
So did you say it's more it's not necessarily the seats, the number of seats that are being occupied? It's more of just this is how much money goes towards the class. Is that what I heard?

Jamee Herbert [00:14:07]:
Yes.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:14:08]:
So it's so so what I'm hearing, and I know it sounds simple to just say this, but it sounds like universal preschool is that yeah. Universal preschool should it benefits everyone if we do that, but it just maybe just boils down to funding.

Jamee Herbert [00:14:21]:
Yeah. I mean, yeah. Everywhere. Right? There's a huge, I would say, wave of momentum around funding more funding toward preschool. Lots of states, Michigan, California, have large initiatives around expanding their pre k programs for universal preschool and and cities too. We work with Multnomah County where Portland, Oregon is. They have initiative called Preschool For All that expands access to pre k. Like I said, Cambridge, Massachusetts, the city, has a tax to fund universal preschool.

Jamee Herbert [00:14:53]:
So not just at the state level, but local levels as well. Cambridge is an interesting example. They used to be just the Cambridge Public Schools, and they had a pre k program, but they expanded it significantly. And when they expanded it, they made it mixed delivery because they needed more space for the children to go. There wasn't enough space in just the school district. So, it's a mixed delivery program and, yeah, there's just a huge momentum to grow access to free high quality preschool for 4 year olds across the country.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:15:21]:
Good. And I'm glad to hear that, which which makes me kinda wanna shift gears a little bit because I'm I'm considering, like, a lot of our preschool programs, as you mentioned, are are privately set up. So there's, you know, often some sort of tuition or childcare fees, things like that are associated, which ultimately is gonna impacts negatively a lot of our lower income families, lower to no income families. And and so I I'm just curious. Are what is your take? What are your thoughts, information that you might have in regards to utilizing data to support families that are in those situations?

Jamee Herbert [00:15:56]:
Yeah. Well, it it really I mean, the early childhood education system, I'll say in quotes because it's not as it's a nonsystem, and it's very much broken. It is essentially the child care system. And and and, again, it's a nonsystem, really. It depends on how much how much money the family makes. So for families who are, you know, very low income, there is the child care subsidies system. So you can qualify for child care assistance, and preschool is an age group within child care. So it goes up until kindergarten for full day care and then usually beyond as well for after school care and things like that.

Jamee Herbert [00:16:36]:
So if you qual it's all income qualification based. If you make little enough money and you work and meet many other criteria, then or you're getting education or something, then you can qualify for that assistance. Now not all child care providers accept subsidy and participate in that system. So when you talk about the, you know, the best preschools, a lot of times, they might not accept that public funding. So that's that's an equity discrepancy.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:17:04]:
I was just about to say, I sound like we got an equity issue.

Jamee Herbert [00:17:06]:
Some providers will say that they do, but they don't. Really, there's no there's generally no requirement to accept a family so they can because they're private businesses and they can kind of run them how they want and accept the children that they want. So it it is absolutely an equity issue.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:17:23]:
And they'll just do a quota too. Oh, well, we we have 10 vouchers only or only 5. You know what I'm saying? Like, they'll do it to, like so they can say, oh, yeah. We have Sure. Folks that are on scholarships, but it'd be, like, 2 students that'll be on scholarships. You know what I'm saying? So those are some things that they're they're doing to kinda get away with or get over that.

Jamee Herbert [00:17:44]:
There's the very real aspect that our our child care subsidy system often does not subsidize enough. So those businesses that accept subsidy are sometimes doing so as almost an act of charity because they make less from the government than they do from full paying families. But almost nowhere does this the subsidy compensate the full amount of the cost of care. Like, some stated 80% of market rate, and market rate is already not enough to cover the true cost of care. So you're asking businesses. Right? Business owners who need to make keep the lights on, pay their staff to just for no reason other than that these families qualify, take a 20% cut on what they should be paid for their service. It's it's unheard of. Right? It's like this that doesn't happen in any other business.

Jamee Herbert [00:18:35]:
So there's a lot broken about that subsidy system. On top of it all too, there's a there's a shifting now happening due to recent policy change, but that that compensation is also based on attendance rather than what child care providers usually do, which is just charge the full amount every month. Like, when my son was sick for most of the month of December, we paid the same amount for child care as if he was there or not. Right? That's how it works in child care because they have to staff regardless. But often, the subsidy doesn't compensate the same. So there's a lot of ways that you can't even fault the childcare providers. Right? The system is not supporting what the need is.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:19:14]:
So what would be your suggestion then, Jamie? If the system is not hoarding?

Jamee Herbert [00:19:19]:
Well, actually, they have moved. So the the new the funding comes from CCDF at the federal government. They have moved to enrollment based compensation, which will end up costing probably most states quite a bit more, but is the more, I would argue, equitable way to compensate for that. And it certainly is a better support for the childcare providers and their staff.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:19:41]:
What is enrollment based? What does that mean? What do you mean?

Jamee Herbert [00:19:43]:
So instead of attendance based, whether the child showed up that day, it's whether they're enrolled with the program.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:19:48]:
Okay. So then even if they don't so then let's just say they missed 10 days of of school, and I get I could see pushback coming from that direction. So help me understand how that's that could be a more of a equitable solution.

Jamee Herbert [00:20:01]:
Because if we don't compensate the way providers need to be compensated, they just won't participate. And then you just don't have enough places for families to go who qualify. Right? So, like, we were talking about with, like, the best childcare providers or the best preschool providers. If you don't compensate adequately for their service, they're just not gonna participate in the system, and that's an equity issue because then the employees who qualify and can't pay outright won't have access to it at all.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:20:26]:
Okay. I see what you're saying. I can just think and and I I see what you're saying. Again, I'm I'm learning. So I'm literally learning right now. So so that's why I'm asking some of these kind of questions because I'm thinking, okay. Well, if we go enrollment versus attendance, then we could end up getting ghost families.

Jamee Herbert [00:20:44]:
Yeah. Meaning That's a

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:20:45]:
good Yeah. Okay.

Jamee Herbert [00:20:47]:
No. That is the concern. Right? But there are ways to look at that. I mean, confirm enrollment and have a certain threshold of attendance each month so that they're not just ghost families. All of our clients who do enrollment based subsidy do have some kind of measure like that. But, again, it's it's a question of staffing. You've got a school. Right? You have a certain number of classrooms.

Jamee Herbert [00:21:08]:
You have to be able to pay that teacher. You have to be able to fund that classroom. The reality is we just have childcare providers going out of business. They're just leaving the field. Like, we have a supply issue because we are not properly compensating for that cost of care in a way that's stable for them. And so and and so they just leave. Like, we have a workforce, like, flooding from the workforce. We we will not have high quality care if we don't pay people who are educated, people who are able to sustain a living in a true field, right, that is valued and have stability in their income.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:21:45]:
It's not just the making sure that families have access, but it's also making sure that we have quality staff, and we're compensating them for their services, which I think is just a general education.

Jamee Herbert [00:21:57]:
They're inexpensively linked. You can't separate the 2. Right? Access for families is providing, like, support for the providers. You just don't have one without the other.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:22:08]:
Okay. Okay. Yeah. It's it just sounds like there's a lot of of you said the system is broken, but there's a lot that would need to take place in order for things to change. I can't even imagine what things were like during COVID times, like when folks were at home and all that stuff. So it's my thought was, like, when COVID happened, I felt like this is a perfect opportunity for education to kind of revamp itself and kinda go with the times. And so, unfortunately oh, well, at least initially, I saw some changes, and then it just kinda seems like we kinda just have gone back to the way things have always been.

Jamee Herbert [00:22:46]:
I will say, I think in early care and education, which is super different landscape than k 12, there was a lot of progress because for the first time ever, there was actually a flood of funding for early care and education because it was critical for workforce. Right? I mean, even in the 1st days of the pandemic, what did we need? We needed childcare because the schools were closed. So for the frontline workers, it was like, where are the childcare providers? They were allowed to be open only for essential workers. And so there was the spotlight on how critical child care is that they almost never actually receive that kind of respect or attention on that industry. So funding came along with it enough. I mean, arguably, no. But it was more than ever seen before. Right? Okay.

Jamee Herbert [00:23:35]:
And and frankly, like, all so much, it was difficult to manage that effectively in such a short time because the systems weren't in place, and we're still seeing a lot of systems be put in place for that long term funding. But but I think a lot of smart decisions were made, particularly around systems and data, actually, in that time because because they weren't there, and they needed them in order to be able to know how to serve their communities.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:23:59]:
Gotcha. Okay. Fair enough. Alright. Well, I I'll tell you this, Jamie. I've learned a lot. You have thank you. Again, thank you for your patience with my questions.

Jamee Herbert [00:24:07]:
Yeah. I enjoyed it. I love talking about this stuff.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:24:09]:
Okay. So I appreciate that, but, I'd love for you to share any final words of advice you wanna provide to our listeners.

Jamee Herbert [00:24:15]:
Yeah. I guess two words of advice. 1 is never underestimate the life of a human and in our society and and the importance of that investment. If you already believe in the importance of early care and education, then I would say also don't underestimate the importance of the the system itself and the way that these policies get implemented. Day in and day out, that's what I work on, and I see, you know, kind of how the sausage is made and how important that final step is in making the system that, you know, either emphasizes equity and supports a great experience for families and providers that truly values them or misses the mark.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:24:55]:
Alright. Well, Jamie, if we have some folks that wanna connect with you, what's the best way to reach you online?

Jamee Herbert [00:25:00]:
LinkedIn is the best way to reach me. Or if you're just kinda interested in this topic and you can follow along, we post some some thoughts about how to make the system better or success stories of things that are going on across the country. And, yeah, I'm jamee, Jamie Herbert. You can find me there.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:25:17]:
There you are. Okay. And I'll leave some links in the show notes, folks. Jamie, it has truly been a pleasure. Thank you so much for your time.

Jamee Herbert [00:25:23]:
Thanks so much. Thanks for having me.

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