Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:00:00]:
Welcome, advocates, to another episode of the Leading Equity podcast, a podcast that focuses on supporting educators with the tools and resources necessary to ensure equity at their schools. Today's special guest is doctor Damon Harris. So without further ado, Damon, thank you so much for joining us today.

Dr. Daman Harris [00:00:18]:
I'm excited to be here, Sean, to talk to you and your audience.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:00:21]:
Thank you. And now you've been on the show before, and so I'm excited to have you back on your recently an author author on a a book with Solution Tree. And we're gonna talk a little bit about that and we're gonna have a conversation about the anti racist school leader. But before we get into that, I'd love for you to share a little bit about yourself and what you currently do.

Dr. Daman Harris [00:00:39]:
Alright. So my name is Damon Harris, like you said, and I am the co director of a nonprofit that supports the recruitment, the retention, the development, and empowerment of black and brown men in education, and it's called the Bond Project. You can find out more about us at bondeducators.org, but we do all kinds of things that are in in support of those efforts. So sometimes it is about platforms like a podcast or a blog. Sometimes it is about opportunities to grow and develop like a conference or mentorship, those sorts of things that we offer. I've been in public education for twenty nine years, everything from a before and after care provider, I guess that's more than twenty nine years if I count that, Through school principalship. And right now, I work in the central office of a district in the Mid Atlantic, and it is I am the senior manager of educator advancement and IHE partnerships, where I support a lot of our professional learning opportunities for our employees through our university partners or through face to face interactions that I'll provide with for them or folks on my team.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:01:46]:
First of all, is that your book frame behind you? That's pretty Is

Dr. Daman Harris [00:01:50]:
that it? That is. That is. Thank you to Solution Tree. They they sent that when my book sold, so I was excited to see that. And on the other over my other shoulder is assigned a card from a bunch of my students from my former school. When I was writing that book, I was at that school. So that that all both of those things behind me. And in addition to my family photos that I have just outside of the viewing audience, those are the things that keep me focused and excited and uplifted and encouraged.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:02:19]:
Love that. Alright. That's what's up. So the the name of the book is The Anti Racist School Leader, What to Know, Say, and Do by doctor Damon Harrison Folks. Of course, we got links in the show now, so grab your copy. Support doctor Harris' work. I wanna start there because that's the conversation. We got a new administration, and the term anti racist is not a new term.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:02:41]:
However, I guess now is a great time to talk about it, especially since if you're living in The United States, we're already seeing a lot of changes in when it comes to presidential things and and and changes with laws. And, yeah, we've talked about book bannings in the past. We talked about a lot of pushback when it comes to DEI initiatives. I wanna start with this conversation about the anti racist school leader by just defining its anti racist school leader by just defining this. In 02/2025, what does the anti racist school leader look like?

Dr. Daman Harris [00:03:10]:
It's, pretty simple in terms of the the definition for me. It is any a leader in general. A leader is anyone who either has or aspires to have influence on a school or a school district. So that could be absolutely principals and assistant principals, which might jump to folks' minds right away. But it is also teacher leaders, students, boards of education members, superintendents, families of the students, community members writ large. Like, so there are a lot of different folks who could be leaders in the school. And when we think about when I talk about what anti racist means, it may mean something different to me than it means to other folks. So but what I think about it is when the folks who are actively seeking and identifying and deconstructing systems of oppression that that benefit or disproportionately harm one group over the other.

Dr. Daman Harris [00:04:07]:
And in this case, when we think about anti race, anti racism, we're thinking about race, but it could be on a number of different types of identities. It's not just race. But in this case, that that is the word that stands out. That's the word that I'm using because that's the the angle that I took. And one of the things that I'll do well, perhaps we'll get to this later in the conversation. But with this is certainly in a group that has been oppressed when we think about race. There's clearly a racial hierarchy in the way our outcomes are produced in our schools. And so that means that we need to do something about that.

Dr. Daman Harris [00:04:37]:
So that's why race is certainly a focus for me.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:04:39]:
Okay. Okay. So it's not just limited to race is what I'm hearing. It's that there's it's intersectional, if you will.

Dr. Daman Harris [00:04:45]:
Absolutely.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:04:46]:
Okay. Alright. And and what I like about what your definition entails was it's not just your school leaders. It's not just your district folks, but it also can include students as well. It can include staff members at your school as well. Does that look differently when it comes to anti racism based off of the the the individual?

Dr. Daman Harris [00:05:06]:
How you try to exercise that influence certainly can look different. So because a principal can tell teachers to do some things that a parent couldn't do. A board of education member could establish policies that perhaps a principal could. So there are definitely ways that this stuff could be implemented sort of differently or more nuanced depending on the the role that a person has. But there are sort of six key sort of things I tell people to do and everything from educating yourself to evaluating how your impact is on on kids and on families, on policies. Those things happen no matter where you are, no matter where you're situated in the school district and that whole stakeholder ecosystem, you still have an opportunity to to do to exercise those practices or employ those practice. In fact, the people who are opposed to anti racist, the anti anti racist Yeah.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:05:58]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Daman Harris [00:05:58]:
Those folks are using these strategies that I say. They're just using them to benefit a different group of people. Right? But they're still using them nonetheless. Give me an example of that.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:06:08]:
Tell me more about that.

Dr. Daman Harris [00:06:09]:
Well, one of the groups that that rose to prominence over the last few years is is Moms for Liberty, for instance.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:06:15]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Daman Harris [00:06:16]:
Or groups that are are like those. And those folks, they they saw that they had a sense that something was wrong, and it was harmful to white children and and children who are cisgender, children who are of means economically. They felt like the policies in their schools and more broadly in our department of education for the for the country, Like these things were disproportionately harming their children. And so what they did was they educated themselves on that topic. They found data to support their perspectives, and they've committed to themselves, but also to their communities. We're gonna make a change. And they told people, this is what we're gonna do. We're gonna take over boards of education.

Dr. Daman Harris [00:07:02]:
We are gonna elect more other kinds of public officials. We are going to get rid of certain books. We are gonna change curricula. We're gonna do all these things, and we are ready to fight. When that resistance comes, we're gonna tell people this is why. And then we're gonna you can hold our feet to the fire because once we get into that board of education, we want you to see how we may change that we promised. All those things are the same things that I tell people to do in my book, but it's not benefiting just white children. Mine is the benefit all children and all stakeholders in the communities that support schools.

Dr. Daman Harris [00:07:35]:
But that but it's the they use the same playbook.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:07:37]:
So so essentially, that is anti racism. Yeah. From from that from that perspective. Like, now I don't believe I know people will say, oh, that's that's reverse racism, which I don't think exists. I mean, to me, racism is racism. But I I but from what I'm hearing, and I never thought about it from that direction because that is essentially what it's saying. Oh, you're making our students feel bad and feel guilty about being Americans. That's a lot of language I used to hear.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:08:02]:
What I'm hearing from you is they're actually doing anti racist work Yeah. Against anti racist work. Absolutely.

Dr. Daman Harris [00:08:10]:
But that's the playbook, man.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:08:11]:
Right. Yeah.

Dr. Daman Harris [00:08:12]:
Like, they talk about, like, we wanna be that's the whole arm rubber your glue thing. Right? They they try to make it seem like having an identity is wrong, right? Champion identity or having people think about identities is wrong. Like being anti identity is identity. You are an idealogue. They say, no, we don't want to, to, we go indoctrinate our children. What do you think about what indoctrination means? It just means accepting something without being without being taught, like, thinking about it. Like, no. You just do this.

Dr. Daman Harris [00:08:41]:
We we pledge allegiance to the flag every every day. Right? Like, oh, and we don't wanna be political. Education is a political act. Act. Like all of that stuff is is is made up.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:08:52]:
I would argue I would argue that anti racism from a, I guess, a bipoc perspective would be more inclusive than anti racism from whites only perspective. Meaning, if, like you said, for example, the the daughters or is it moms of Liberty, that group, they're advocating for white students. However, when we talk about anti racism from our perspective, we're including black, including brown, we're including all Asian, we're we're including Native American, we're including more than they are. I don't know. May maybe that maybe maybe it's just me.

Dr. Daman Harris [00:09:27]:
I think so. Well, I guess I am speaking for them because I already said this was this day is my playbook. So I'm a I'm a keep speaking for them.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:09:34]:
Okay. Okay. Okay.

Dr. Daman Harris [00:09:36]:
I I think that they they might push back and say, you know, the all lives matter argument.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:09:41]:
Okay. Okay. Okay.

Dr. Daman Harris [00:09:42]:
So, yeah, like, we are, like but we don't want black children to feel like victims either. Right? And we don't want black children to feel like they have a ceiling because of racism, or we don't want, you know, indigenous children to feel like they have a ceiling because they were, you know, harmed before they were born. Right? Like so I think they would still argue that they're benefiting all children. I just think what motivates them is not all children. But I think that that's they they would still push back and say, no. It is all children.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:10:11]:
Okay. Okay. I can see that. Okay. I can see that. I just again, a lot of this is if we removed a lot of things and we just said we want what's best for the students, and we recognize that some students just have advantages and some have disadvantages, and we we were able to address things from a systemic level. Okay. What has historically impacted certain groups of people, and what changes can be made in order to help everyone thrive.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:10:35]:
That would make so much sense. People hear certain words that triggers them in a way that makes them feel, oh, there's there's there this this could take away my power. This could do this. This could do that. So you hear the term racist or racism and all those different word. Oh my goodness. It just it puts folks at a defensive mode as opposed to just thinking, okay. How about we can all agree that we want what's best for students, and we recognize that each student is different, and so they have they're gonna have different needs.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:11:05]:
Yeah.

Dr. Daman Harris [00:11:06]:
And but I I'm I'm cool with having that as a starting point for the conversation, but we are certainly gonna get there to where we are because this is racism is is one of the sort of metaphors I use in the book. It's it's a cancer. So you can't go to your physician and have this person talk about all the other things around you. Like, I'm gonna give you some something for your runny nose When was causing your runny nose is cancer. All your organs are shutting down, so we are going to get there. And sometimes folks, I use the the the phrase that old Mary Poppins, we're gonna take a spoonful of sugar, you know, to help the medicine go down sort of thing.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:11:42]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Daman Harris [00:11:42]:
That works for a cold or or castor oil or something you're trying to take. I don't even know what castor oil is, but, like, that works for that stuff, but it doesn't work for cancer. Right? So we're gonna have to get there. And what I try to help folks to to think about is why we're even there. And it's it's this in group out group thing because I don't want you to feel I'm I'm not in it to make anybody feel bad, but we need to understand what's happening, why we think the way we think about race even. Right? In order for us to fix this, because right now, if we are a computer, racism is in the hardware. Right? White supremacy is in the hardware. So it doesn't matter what application we put on top of it.

Dr. Daman Harris [00:12:19]:
It's not gonna it's gonna produce the same results.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:12:22]:
I love it. Okay. Change.

Dr. Daman Harris [00:12:24]:
Right? We have

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:12:25]:
But we have technology is what I'm here. We can't just we can subtly no. We need to say this is a issue. Here's the issue it needs to change. Can't tiptoe. Yep. Okay. Alright.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:12:36]:
Let's I I and I agree. Absolutely.

Dr. Daman Harris [00:12:38]:
That is that

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:12:38]:
Let let's talk about communication. Let let's talk about how do we communicate this message because we're in a time where DI programs, for example, are already under fire. So if I'm trying to say I am an anti racist school leader and I would like an anti racist school. Give us some tips, strategies on how to communicate this message. What what has been your experience in these ways?

Dr. Daman Harris [00:13:04]:
So it it depends on your context. So you certainly wherever you are, you need to give some thought to how your stakeholders would view this conversation at all. So sometimes you're in a space where everybody's ready to go. Like, I've worked with a school district recently and said, we as a school district are using the phrase or the word anti racism, and we need to work on that. So those principles have a different sort of level of freedom with how they're gonna have this conversation. I also worked with school districts who said we need to have conversations about student achievement or student outcomes in in ways that suddenly get in that direction. Because when we look at student outcomes, there there's a clear hierarchy of performance. One of the examples I use in the book and I talk about sometimes when I'm on the road is if you think about a line graph and you shit and you think line graph show change over time, so we're thinking, like, over five years, ten years, whatever.

Dr. Daman Harris [00:14:06]:
And the line graph is something positive, like GPA scores, graduation rates, AP courses taken, college acceptance, etcetera. And I said, I want you over the last ten years, we're gonna track by racial or ethnic groups, which and I'm just gonna show four four lines from the top to the bottom going across that line graph. The racial and I tell you that they represent racial ethnic groups. I don't need to tell you which line is which, which lines at the top, which line second from the top, third from top, fourth from top, fifth from top at the bottom. I don't have to tell you which one it represents, which racial ethnic group, and you have a pretty good idea as to why that which one of those groups are represented in those positive outcomes. Now flip it, keep the lines the same, and now change the outcome, the topic to negative outcomes. Suspensions, office referrals, low GPA, dropout rates, same lines. I don't have to tell you which racial ethnic groups are represented by those lines for you to have a pretty good idea as to which ones are there.

Dr. Daman Harris [00:15:08]:
And that is in almost every school in the country. Right? And it's not been like that only for two years, three years, five years since the pandemic. It's been like that for a hundred years. Yeah. And we change all kinds of things. We've changed cool words, right, was grit at one point or some other thing. And now it's science of reading and science of learning. And, yeah, we've changed that stuff.

Dr. Daman Harris [00:15:30]:
You've probably changed listeners in your in your district, superintendents, curricula, textbooks, all those things have changed. That hierarchy still remains. That demographic hierarchy is stagnant. Why? And so at some point and this is one of those things we're casting vision to to our folks and sharing. This is why I wanna do this work. Said to my staff, I said to them, it's been like that for a hundred years, and it's been like that on my watch in our school. So I have to either believe it's more of one of two things. It's either more of hose deficits in my children, my students, and their families that recreate this demo in the communities they're in, that recreate these demographic hierarchies.

Dr. Daman Harris [00:16:10]:
Or that number two is more of number two, that there's an issue with the system that recreates these demographic hierarchies no matter the inputs. I spent the first two thirds of my career trying to fix holes in kids and families. Never looked at the system once. Now it's time to look at the system because systems do what they're designed to do. So that's the difference. So we're casting this vision to my staff. That's what I'm saying. When I cast this vision to my boss, when I was a principal at the time, this is what I said to her.

Dr. Daman Harris [00:16:41]:
Same thing to my community members. That's what I said to them. And when folks push back, we still have that. Even in my staff, a couple different things about talking with my staff. I said, folks said, but what if we don't believe in racism? What if we don't believe that exists? I said, well, that's that's cool. Let's let's talk more about it, but we've never experienced it. So how like, I don't I've never seen it. Like, some of my my staff said, I've never seen it.

Dr. Daman Harris [00:17:04]:
So I got I get it. And my staff was most were mostly white women, or at least the folks who came to talk to me were mostly white women. And I said, yeah, let's because it's not like sexism. Well, and he's like, wait, wait. No sexism exists because look at the thing. All you gotta do is look at the data. We got 80% of our teachers are white women, but 20, but only 20% of our school leaders are white women. When you look at the data and see that there's a disparity that's happened along to a lot of times over no matter what, that's probably indicator something's not right.

Dr. Daman Harris [00:17:32]:
We gotta change something. Yes. That's what I'm trying to do here. Another example, and I share with with folks, and there's example in the book, and then I'll and I'll shut up. But example in the book that I was out in Napa with my wife, and we went on a wine tour. And I got more than her in on a pour. And I said to her, hey. You know, the server gave me more than you.

Dr. Daman Harris [00:17:50]:
Is that funny? And she said, yeah. Yeah. This the server gave gave you more this time, and and he did it, the last two times as well. Sexism. Ain't that hilarious? And I said, Oh, wait, I didn't know that. Let's go talk to him. No, we're not talking to him. We're about to ruin our vacation, having that conversation, trying to unpack that stuff.

Dr. Daman Harris [00:18:09]:
We're, we are not doing that. We're just going to do what we're doing. Enjoy our time together. Understand that this is what it is and we'll, we'll move on. So I shared that story while I was sharing the sexism thing with my staff after having that small group conversation with my with some of the folks on my team. What what it crystallized for me and it helped me share with my staff was is that person. My wife is the person I love the most in on this planet. And I did not know she was experiencing this.

Dr. Daman Harris [00:18:37]:
It's hard for me to recognize obstacles that I don't face. So I have to have people around me who do face these obstacles and they can share them with me. And it helped me think through how to respond. That's what this work is. So it's okay if you don't if you're not quite sure, trust your leader. If you're a leader, trust your judgment and let's work through it. The data will tell you.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:19:01]:
Yeah. And and the thing about it, from what I'm hearing, these are some really good examples, because, again, we we tend to live a life, you know, our our we get focused on what experiences impact us personally. And so we don't always think about how these kind of things impact other folks who have different identities. And and and we can have the conversation about sexism. However, you know, you still got different genders of color that not only are they experiencing from a sexist standpoint, but they also might be experiencing it from abilities. They might be experiencing it from, you know, racial standpoints and things like that. So what I'm hearing is you gotta look at the systems, which will which is gonna require changes. And I think a lot of times we look at here's a conversation I've been having is, okay, about your staffing.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:19:53]:
Right? So we say, like, our demographic our student demographic is a 50% more of color. However, like you said, most schools are about 80 or so percent white women. It's kind of the the teaching force. So then we say, okay. So let's let's be intentional about hiring more staff of color. And then the pushback that I've had conversations with folks is, well, does that mean that we're not gonna hire any white women and they're not gonna get opportunities for jobs? And and are we impacting you know, are are we getting less qualified candidates because we're not hire so when you get if I'm a school leader or if I'm just a leader that's claiming to be anti racist, any feedback you can give for that kind of pushback that you get when you're trying to make these type of changes when you know it's right and I wanna make the change. What kind of advice could you maybe give to those who are getting a lot of pushback?

Dr. Daman Harris [00:20:43]:
This is one of those age old arguments against the the diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging work is, oh, you know, if you're just gonna pull people in as a quota, are you gonna take jobs away from fill in the blank group? As a leader, the conversation that you have with your staff is or your team, your community, whoever that is, being inclusive of everyone or trying to be inclusive of everyone does not mean that they need to be at the expense of excluding others. So simply when you're doing hiring, for instance, if you make a change to the system, for instance, something really simple, like when you're you're having an interview panel, folks are reviewing resumes, deciding who's gonna get interviewed. Maybe you take the names off. That's not an issue with, like, we're gonna exclude someone. And you're looking at somebody's information and you're you're comparing apples to apples. Or perhaps you change the language when you're talking with your folks about keeping with the hiring piece. So So when you have this conversation about with your interview panel or the folks who are on that panel or somewhere along the lines of the process, stop stop asking if people are fits for the organization. Stop asking if there are cultural fits and start asking if they are cultural ads.

Dr. Daman Harris [00:21:54]:
Okay. Who can add to the culture that we have here? Right? That that necessarily somebody you need to go hang out with and be the godfather of your child. Right? Though that changes the the way we think about things. So that can change the practice of hiring without saying, I need to go hire a fill in a blank person. Where and you can't just say, well, we send people to a to an HBCU to recruit, and then that's what we do. Like so there there's that too. But what what are we doing with recruitment and retention? Are we gathering voices of all of these people to feel to talk to us about how they feel about our organization? So those those are different ways that you can get at having a conversation with your teams around bringing folks on in a more inclusive manner without being exclusive of other folks.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:22:41]:
So tell me a little bit more about because you mentioned we recruited HBCUs. And let's let's just add in his his HBCUs, Hispanic serving institutions, a tribal college or something like that. Tell me a little bit more what you mean by is it I I guess I wasn't clear as far as your take on that.

Dr. Daman Harris [00:22:59]:
So when we're thinking about when we talk about we need more representation of teachers of teachers of of color or BIPOC folks in different spaces or folks who are multilingual, etcetera. It's like the oftentimes, folks will say we go to Spanish serving institutions, minority serving institutions, tribe like you said, tribal colleges, etcetera. And they that's that's our diversity plan. That's our hiring sort of plan. That is the strategy that we use. Okay. Those those universities don't don't bring enough folks out probably in your given state, particularly, where where wherever you are, that will feed the amount of folks who are leaving. So that can't just be the only thing that you're doing.

Dr. Daman Harris [00:23:38]:
And even if you're recruiting these folks, there's no guarantee that your folks are hiring them. If they hire like, if you recruit them to your district as a HR staff, there's no guarantee your folks are gonna hire them even if they're qualified, unless they're if they're looking for people who who, air quote, fit the culture, or there may be an opportunity to bring people in. But when they get there, they're leaving with greater rates because they don't feel comfortable there. They don't feel like they fit in. They don't feel like they add value. They don't like, you you can do the etcetera piece with that. But people so that's what I mean when I say it needs to be more than just that as a part of thinking about representation.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:24:16]:
Okay. I like that. And I'm not One

Dr. Daman Harris [00:24:19]:
more quick thing. One more quick thing on it. Yeah.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:24:20]:
So one

Dr. Daman Harris [00:24:21]:
of the things we we talk about with the bond project is if one of our theories of action is if if schools are better places for boys of color, then more of them would want to become teachers. If schools are better places for men of color, then more of them will stay in the profession when they get here. So we have to take that approach as well, but more targeted approach, a strategic approach to support and retention in order to get that those representative representation goals that we all say we want.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:24:47]:
So I'm not pushing back. I guess, how does this impact intentionality? Okay. So let's say we recognize our again, we're still on the hiring. So let's just say we recognize our staff demographics do not look like our student demographics. You know research supports that if you got folks that look like you, you're more likely to do better in your in your academic career than you would if you had staff or teachers that weren't that did not have similar backgrounds. So I've had conversations where folks will just say, oh, no. We can't find staff that's gonna match some of our student demographics. So I suggest, hey.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:25:26]:
Have you tapped into some of the historically black colleges? Have you tapped into some of the Hispanic surveying and tribal colleges and things like that to try to connect, to be intentional? So what I'm hearing on your end, I I guess, what I'm trying to understand is how does this impact the intentionality with our changing the system?

Dr. Daman Harris [00:25:45]:
That that is fine. Like, that visiting that recruitment strategy as one strand of what you do, I think is fine.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:25:53]:
Okay.

Dr. Daman Harris [00:25:53]:
But often folks say that is the strand. Okay. That's that's that's it. That's the whole rope is us visiting these spaces. And there are opportunities to grow your educator diversity in in ways that are are far better or that are better suited to supplement that other visit, that recruitment strategy of visiting the HBCUs. For example, oftentimes the folks in your school district who are teacher support staff or instructional support staff, those folks tend to skew more folks of color. Right. That should be a place where you tap in to say, let's let's grow our own folks.

Dr. Daman Harris [00:26:29]:
You do you have a future educator program that and you make sure that your folks of color feel like they belong in those spaces. Where's your relationship with the universities to help you develop a pipeline to support career changers so that you can get some of your community members involved? Where's your development of affinity groups in these spaces so that some of your multilingual staff members or folks who are immigrants feel, like, a sense of community and, like, they can grow together as they become the next generation of teachers. So there are a million are your folks visiting different place? Bond has annual conference where the folks who are leading the work are black and brown men in education. If that's the case, do your teams come out to that conference and and learn about the perspectives of these folks? The Center for Black Educate Black Educated Development has same thing. They have a a black minute education convening every year. They're your teams there. There are school districts who are there. The school district I'm in now has this representation issue, but we are between two major cities who don't.

Dr. Daman Harris [00:27:32]:
So there it's not that the people aren't there. You know, that that's that's what I'm thinking when I when I hear that.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:27:37]:
Okay. Okay. That that makes sense. And I I would add also, because I love the whole are your is your district or is your school participating in some sort of future educator development programs? And then I will also add leadership as well. I don't know the numbers, but when it comes to school leadership, it's it's definitely not where it needs to be.

Dr. Daman Harris [00:27:59]:
Yep. Agree.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:28:01]:
Alright. Well, listen. I I will say this, Damon. I have thoroughly enjoyed having this conversation. It's got me a lot of to to think about. And, folks, again, make sure you grab yourself a copy of the Anti Racist School Leader. And it's not just limited to principals and, let's call it, deans and assistant principals. There's if you consider yourself a leader or you're wanting to be a leader, whether that's a student, you might be still in college right now, whatever it might be, those who are listening.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:28:27]:
But it seems like this is if you have the antiracist mantra, that's your mindset, that's where you're wanting to go, then this is important. Damon, I I would love for you to share one final word of advice to our listeners.

Dr. Daman Harris [00:28:38]:
Yeah. So I I talk a lot about being brave in these conversations, but I also recognize that as as a leader, I often tell people that you wanna follow your heart and you wanna follow your community's needs. That that all makes sense, and that is being true to yourself as a leader and your your core values. You also need to follow your school district's guidelines. So I ain't telling you to say anything that's gonna get you fired, but you need to make sure because your school needs you, and you need to make sure that you're gonna be there for your community and your own your biological family. However, that work remains and you are only alone if you choose to be. There are people all over the country outside of your bubble who are ready to help you do this work, help you think through this work. And all you had to do was reach out.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:29:26]:
Alright, bro. Appreciate that. That was a mic drop right there, man. So if we have some folks that wanna connect with you, what's the best way to reach you online?

Dr. Daman Harris [00:29:34]:
So best way is to come through my website is damonharris.com. It's d a m a n. I am the man that's in the mind device to help you with that. Damon harris dot com. You probably had to email me though is [email protected] because the contact portal on my website is probably still gonna be broken by the time this airs.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:29:52]:
We'll get it fixed, though. We'll get you fixed. Yeah.

Dr. Daman Harris [00:29:54]:
Yeah. Yeah. I'm working on it.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:29:55]:
Alright. On social media, are you out there?

Dr. Daman Harris [00:29:58]:
I am, the most I'm most prominent on LinkedIn, and it's just Damon Harris as my name is spelled. I'm probably the only one, I think. So So you'd be able to find me there. I I do a lot of back and forth with folks there. I'm not on some of these other platforms. I, yeah, I'm not not quite sure where I fit nowadays in those those other ecosystems.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:30:17]:
Fair enough. Fair enough.

Dr. Daman Harris [00:30:18]:
Just jump on blue sky, though. You can find me there. So, I haven't I haven't been very active, though.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:30:23]:
Alright. Sounds good. Well, Damon, it's truly a pleasure. Great talking to you again. Take care.

Dr. Daman Harris [00:30:28]:
Alright. Take it easy.

Are you subscribed to the podcast? If you’re not, I want to encourage you to do that today. I don’t want you to miss an episode. Click here to subscribe in iTunes!

Now if you enjoy listening to the show, I would be really grateful if you left me a review over on iTunes, too. Those reviews help other advocates find the podcast and they’re also fun for me to go in and read. Just click here to review, select “Ratings and Reviews” and “Write a Review” and let me know what your favorite part of the podcast is. Thank you!