Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:00:00]:
Welcome, advocates, to another episode of the Leading Equity podcast, a podcast that focuses on supporting educators with the tools and resources necessary to ensure equity at their schools. Today's special guest, got two sisters here, Melinda and Candice are here with me. So without further ado, Melinda, Candice, thank you so much for joining us today.

Melinda [00:00:20]:
Thank you for having us.

Candice [00:00:21]:
Yes. We're excited to be here.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:00:23]:
I could tell. I can really tell. So thank you.

Candice [00:00:25]:
So glad that you're here.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:00:27]:
It's a Sunday, so it's fair enough. But I'm excited to have this conversation. We're gonna be talking about math education and the work that you're doing and how we can go beyond standardized testing. But before we get started, Melinda, I'd love for you to start with yourself. Tell us a little bit about yourself and what you currently do.

Melinda [00:00:42]:
Sure. So I reside in Brooklyn, New York. My background is actually in biology, so I pivoted over to mathematics. I have my undergraduate in biology and I'm also a certified medical scientist at YHE Math, which is our math tutoring center located in Bedford Stuyvesant in Brooklyn, New York. At YHE Math, I work primarily in operations, and I also work with the primary education level of mathematics along with Candace.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:01:08]:
Alright. Well, Candace, I'm a throw it at you. Tell us a little bit about yourself and what you currently do.

Candice [00:01:12]:
I am co owner of Why Hate Math in Brooklyn, and I also am a math consultant in several DOE DOE schools in New York City. I was born here in Brooklyn, raised in Stonemont in Georgia, and I've been back in New York for about eight years.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:01:31]:
Alright. Perfect. Perfect. Perfect. So you said your organization is called Why Hate Math? I'm curious. How did that name come about?

Melinda [00:01:40]:
Candace, one of her students actually came up with the name. Prior to having the lab, she was actually going to students' home and touring in person. And she had one student who was having some difficulties learning mathematics. She was a high school student, and she kept telling Candace that she hated math and she had no interest in learning it whatsoever. And she she screamed out basically, I hate math. And Candace looked at her and said, you know what? I'm gonna open up a center one day and I'm gonna name it why I hate math. So Candace might be better at telling the story there, but that's pretty much it. So the inspiration of the name was actually from a student explaining her dislike for mathematics.

Melinda [00:02:27]:
So we were able to spin on that and really pose the question out to the public essentially of why do so many people explain or show their disdain for mathematics, such an important subject. So that's pretty much where the name came from.

Candice [00:02:40]:
I asked her, like, why do you hate this subject that we need in we need it in so for so many reasons. We need it for school, but we need it beyond school. We need it in our day to day lives. We need it to think. We need to be able to think logically. And people every day say, oh, or a lot of students like, when am I gonna use this outside of the classroom? And a lot of time people say, oh, because, you know, with your finances or money, and I try to get them to really think beyond that and talk to them about different ways that math is used every single day.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:03:11]:
Alright. Okay. Well, that name stuck. And so when did when did this organization start, Candice?

Candice [00:03:16]:
Well, I was tutoring private in people's home as Melinda said. And then in 2020, we launched an online site where we can start helping students virtually. And then towards the end of twenty twenty, we still weren't in school. We opened up a room in our home in in East New York, Brooklyn, and students will come after school on Saturday mornings to get tutoring. And that that the word-of-mouth kept catching on. We had a lot of customers coming in our house, and then Melinda told me we have to get out of the house. We need some we need more space.

Melinda [00:03:51]:
Yeah. The location of where she referenced East New York, so that's one of the lower socioeconomic neighborhoods in Brooklyn for the people who are unfamiliar with that community. So it was the fact that people were so receptive, but show that although these people might have had a lower income and live below poverty line, that they still wanted a supplemental for their children. So for us, that kind of triggered something and said, we were like, we really have to kind of push forward and provide even more for them, like provide more resources and tools for them. So we really started digging deeper and began to establish what it would look like and what the environment will look like to create a actual center outside of our home.

Candice [00:04:31]:
I will say we did that for three years, then we opened up in Bed Stuy in September 2023, the WhiteHat Math Math Lab.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:04:39]:
Okay. Alright. Well, congratulations on the work that you're doing. Sounds like you're doing some amazing work. It's it's interesting how 2020 was a year where a lot of things started, especially on the virtual side. And so I'm glad to hear that you have the center. You have a place where folks can students can come in and do work and and learn about math, which leads me to my next question. And I'm gonna throw this to you, Candice, because I'm a school principal.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:05:01]:
And, I mean, right now, we're getting ready for ACT. ACT is gonna be coming up in a few months and math tends to be one of the harder subjects that some of our students are working through, especially in preparation of of the test. And so a lot of times we focus on the standardized testing. We focus on making sure that students can do well on those tests. However, I know that there's more to the story, if you will, when it comes to testing and when it comes to math. So I just wanna know from your end, why is it important to go beyond just standardized testing?

Candice [00:05:37]:
For me, standardized standardized testing, it's something where you wanna get a bunch of data to describe students or to understand how students' education is is going or their level of knowledge or their proficiency or have they mastered these standards, but the test itself can't always do that for students. There are so many factors that go into what a student's proficiency level really is. And sometimes those tests just they don't allow for that. Just because you don't answer a multiple case I mean, a multiple choice question correct doesn't mean that you don't have some level of mastery on the topic. And we need to be able to look at students as a whole students and not just use these tests to determine what their level of proficiency is.

Melinda [00:06:26]:
And I'll kinda, like, pivot from that area. So I know that you mentioned you all test. So in New York, we also have state exams that the students start taking from grade three. And then once they get to high school, then they begin their Regents exam. So once they go into third grade and they start these standardized tests, the schools, as well as the parents, generally, the parents have the option to opt their children out. So the children who have the IEPs, the individual education plans and so forth, they have the opportunity to opt out, which kind of skews the data essentially. And most times it's sort of benefit for the school, but not for the individual because now this group of children are kind of being left out of exactly what we were saying that we may not really care about the standardization, but then we also are losing a certain type of data and understanding of how they are learning and what they're learning and how they should be learning. So, overall, it's like this the system is a little problematic overall, not just for general learners.

Candice [00:07:25]:
Yeah. And some people have test anxiety. Some people need to be I mean, some they do have some accommodations for IEPs, like testing in a different room or having your test read aloud, but I still don't think there's enough accommodation made for each student to take those tests. And there some students are just real honestly, truly are not good test takers. So now we're we're seeing things that way. New York has been has done a, I will say, a decent job of making the test be like, they they they put names in there that may may students may recognize more or things of that nature. So they've tried over the years to make it more adaptable to each child, but I still think that there's there's so many missing points to make these tests more equitable for everyone.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:08:15]:
What what what kind of points are are missing then to make it equitable?

Candice [00:08:18]:
For example, now that some of the tests are online, actually fourth and fifth grade is required online, And some students have not had access to using computers and be able to type in those answers in a certain way. Some students get test prep on these type of questions or they're able to go to tutoring while other students are not.

Melinda [00:08:37]:
Also, in terms of the equity is also the educators that we so although everyone is taking the standardized exam, we're not get we're not having standardized learning. Yeah. We don't have the standardized tools, standardized resources. So especially right now, post pandemic, a lot of educators have been leaving the field essentially. So now you have a lot of people who may not even be so proficient in math teaching mathematics to children. So that's problematic. And now you want everyone to have a certain standard of learn They're not having a certain standard of learning, but you want them to produce results. So for me, that that's that's really unfair.

Candice [00:09:15]:
Yeah. And the standard of learning too being different curriculums in different schools based on what district that you live in. So how am I getting tested on someone in another part of the city, not even in my same borough, who's using a whole different math curriculum? And that you may some and some of these districts are just they're they're trying out a new curriculum for the year, and it's almost like we don't even know if this is truly works. And sometimes it doesn't work, and then the company comes back and says, oh, we're gonna make a part two version of this curriculum. So I was like, wait. So part one didn't work and and but the other students were getting another curriculum that didn't work, and now we're testing that way. And it it can bring a lot of challenges. I've personally seen challenges in different schools.

Candice [00:10:03]:
Working as a math consultant in different areas of Brooklyn. I I see a difference. Okay.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:10:09]:
Okay. I like that. Alright. So it sounds like there's some definitely some things that we need to do in order to support students, again, beyond the standardized testing. One of the things I think it was Candice that mentioned the idea when it comes to equity, the idea of not everyone has access to tutoring. So we can agree that a lot of students don't have access to or some students may not have access to parents that are able to help them at home. My my kids come home with their their math and I'm looking at them. I don't know.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:10:39]:
I I don't know what to tell you. I I haven't done that in twenty years. So I get that, but then there's other families where the parents are able to do that or they are able to provide or get tutoring sourced out, things like that. So here's here's the question that I have. Let let's let's transition over to skills. So we talked about test anxiety. We talked about maybe students that are just trying to acquire some of those skills in order to complete their classes, things like that. Talk to us about the different type of skills that you are helping students with, for example, the test anxiety? What are some of the things that you're doing to support students that that have those kind of needs?

Candice [00:11:18]:
When students come in, we at WhiteHat Math, one of our biggest focus is building confidence, building your math confidence. So once we we start with an assessment, we get to know the student, we build relationships, and we make learning fun for them. They genuinely love to come there. They love doing math there. I just had a new student the other day, and her mom it was her second session. Her mom said on the first session, she literally she had to drag her in there. She said, I don't wanna go to math tutoring. I don't wanna go.

Melinda [00:11:48]:
And she said, now her now

Candice [00:11:49]:
her daughter's like, are we going to math tutoring today? Because we make it fun, and we make you feel confident, and we let you know that you can do this. And we work with you on strategies that you feel comfortable with, and we get to know your learning style, and we help you with your learning style. And the reason I say that that's important for the test anxiety is because once you bring up that confidence, then your you your anxiety begins to decrease when it comes to math. And also, we have one student, and and we advocate for our students in terms of we talk to their parents and tell them the different options that they have. We have one student who had an IEP, and he was struggling. He wasn't doing well on his on his exams. And then we said we told her, hey. You you should talk to the admin administrators team at your school about him possibly getting a separate testing location.

Candice [00:12:39]:
And once he did that, he got a 89 on the next test, and that made him feel really good about himself. But other other ways to support test anxiety is take take breaks. You we use different strategies to help them understand how to look at break down a multiple choice questions. We use strategies. One strategy that I like is, like, the three reads math strategy. You read the question three times, and you take out different information every time you read it. Because now that breaks down the the question for you so you're not seeing this big question or we give them different scaffolds into breaking things into two steps so now so that now the question doesn't seem as challenging or or as long. So those are just things that we do to bring down the testing anxiety.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:13:24]:
One of the things I'm familiar with, and I don't know if you've come across this work, doctor Claude Steele talks about stereotype threats. And they did some research in regards to girls and a perception of math. There's a stereotype that girls can't perform as well as as boys can when it comes to mathematics. Now we know that that's just a stereotype and it's not true. However, that's something that a lot of girls have been told and so when it came to the test for the math test, they were already put at a place where they were thinking they weren't as confident as maybe the boys were. However, what they did in this study was they said, okay. Before they started the test, they said, girls, just so you know, there's a stereotype, or you're expected not to perform as well as boys can perform. However, we know that's not true, and I know you're gonna do a great job.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:14:15]:
You know, just kinda give them a little pep talk. Don't believe the hype kinda thing. Don't believe what you're being told. You are gonna be successful, and the girls performed a lot better just off of those pep talks. Are there some strategies also that you use that might be similar, or is that something some research that you might have come across?

Melinda [00:14:31]:
Not necessarily the research aspect, but in our day to day. So as Candice mentioned, we do the assessment. Kinda initially get them during that assessment period to dispel what they felt coming in the door. So during the assessment, we go through the standards, and the student may be completely wrong, like, totally left field and have no idea of what the next step should be. And we kinda, like, find the little points that they do correct and put so much emphasis on it. We use a lot of terminologies like you're a genius, you're intelligent, like, wow, this is amazing. You're doing such a great job. Like, just the words of, like, affirmations and reassuring them that, hey, you're on the right track.

Melinda [00:15:12]:
Like, hey, let's let's take a look and see how we can build this stuff up better. Or let's let's come back and maybe let's look at some addition strategies that we could work on. So once they are not kinda being knocked down and they're like, okay. No one's yelling at me for not understanding this, or I don't feel like I shouldn't ask a question or pose a question. Like, now we're building up that confidence for them that those strategies really help them because they leave. And it's like, their parents will ask us right in front of them, like, well, how do they do? And we're like, amazing. Like, this kid might have may really not be proficient, and that's okay because we know that we're gonna focus on the areas that they need help with. But we're in front of them, we're like, I'm absolutely a genius.

Melinda [00:15:52]:
Just just jealous. And and they're hearing that and they leap out of their feeling like I am a genius.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:15:59]:
I'm a throw this one to you, Candace, because one of the things that Melinda said that I thought kind of stood out, and I think it's important. It's not something that we always do as educators, is the words of affirmation piece of things. So I I wanna see if you can build upon what Melinda was saying as far as just saying those simple phrases that will kinda build that confidence or are I mean, what are your thoughts when it comes to the importance of affirmations for students that are learning math?

Candice [00:16:25]:
It's so important that and I do it every single day. I mean, sometimes I'm in a high school. And even at that level, the students, they feel so much better when you come in and you tell them, like, you can do it. And as Melinda said, pulling out that one thing that they did correctly. I mean, we could do the longest algebra question in the world and then get to the end. And if they can just say, now what's three plus four is seven? I'm I'm, like, jumping up and down because now that increases their their ability to wanna participate. Now they wanna raise their hand and and answer a question in the classroom. Now they feel like this is a safe space.

Candice [00:17:02]:
And you should be able to create a safe space in your classroom for students who wanna participate or just create a space in your classroom just to have fun with the math and be exciting, and and include your students in what you're doing. I was speaking to a gentleman the other day at a high school here, and he works with the students as a dean, and he's working to become a social worker. And I actually had him come in one of our meetings with the with the algebra one teacher and to talk about how you can incorporate these students and what they like into the into your curriculum. So we actually sat there and we created do nows that were, like, similar to things that they liked just so that they could see themselves in these math problems and get excited. And yeah. So positive praise is just the biggest deal to me. It's just all about what can we do to build up our students' confidence and to make them feel heard in the classroom.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:18:02]:
I love this. I love these answers, and it it's got me thinking because I can think of there's got to be at least a teacher out there that's a math teacher, for example, and they're like, man, I have students or I have a student, that one student that I'm trying to reach. I'm teaching algebra one, and for some reason, I cannot seem to connect with them. And I I wanna throw this to you again, Candace, as far as what tips, what strategies can you provide for those students that kind of like what you mentioned earlier? You had some some students that or a student that came grudgingly did not want to be in that space but turn things around. What kind of advice could you give to any type of type of teachers out there that are just trying to reach a student that just math is just really struggling with?

Candice [00:18:46]:
Well, number one, you have to build a relationship with that student, and they need to know feel like it's a genuine relationship. They need to know that you're there for them and that you're there to help them. And I know it may sound easy, but it can be a challenge sometimes, especially when teachers have so many things going on and they have all these deadlines to meet. But if you could take just a small amount of time to say, hey. Do you do you have siblings at home? What's your favorite thing to do? The relationship building is to is really key to all of this work and getting getting to know your student. And then they will eventually open up to you and then start with even the smallest of the math problem. Like I said, one of my biggest things is is, like, if it's algebra, if it's geometry, and it's something challenging, at least ask I will I will point to that one student in the classroom, and I would ask them the easiest part of the question. And that's what I do all the time.

Candice [00:19:43]:
And then they're like, wait. Oh, I can and then just them having that voice. And then after a while, maybe you ask them something a little bit more challenging and keep growing and keep growing and working with them. And, also, even if their answer is incorrect, like Melinda said earlier, a big thing that I like to do is point out what they did right. I like the way you were thinking and going from there. That can bring math out of anybody. Trust me. I've dealt with so many different students, probably a thousand students, and I've seen a lot of different areas of proficiency.

Candice [00:20:18]:
And I know what you have to do is and and I and you don't even have to honestly, you can come in one day, and they are able to open up to you when they know that you're really there for them.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:20:27]:
Bottom line. Yeah. Alright. Well, I tell you what. The two of you have I've learned a lot just having this conversation about ways that we can go beyond just standardized testing. I heard relationship building is key, supporting students, and letting them know, look, words of affirmation is very important. I I mean, you've brought out a lot of interesting things within today's conversation. Linda, I'm gonna start with you.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:20:50]:
I'd love for you to share with one final word of advice that you would like to provide to our listeners out there.

Melinda [00:20:55]:
We have to understand that math is truly the universal language of the world, essentially, and that the fear of math is somewhat generational, essentially, or anything. It's every everything that we do, it's coming from a previous generation, prior generation. Parents and the village that surround those student need to almost help to break those generational curses in regards to the fear of mathematics. Even if a parent doesn't understand, I think that they should even instill certain just just start instilling some positive a positive outlook towards math and just education as a whole. And I think that that will make a huge difference in the way that the students are approaching math and education.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:21:39]:
Alright. Well, what about you, Ken?

Candice [00:21:40]:
My final piece of advice is finding strategies to increase confidence in your classroom so that students can have a voice in math and that they can have a math identity and a STEM identity because it's very important for them and let them and and let them understand that they need it and that they can do it.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:21:56]:
K. Alright. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Melinda, if we have some folks that want to connect with you, what's the best way to reach you online?

Melinda [00:22:06]:
So our social media is why hate math. That's on Instagram, and we have our website at whyhatemath.com.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:22:14]:
Now do you serve only New York area individuals?

Melinda [00:22:18]:
We also do virtual learning as well, but we love the in person learning. But virtual, if that's the only means of connecting, then we're here.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:22:28]:
K. Well, thank you so much for your time, Melinda and Candice. I appreciate it.

Melinda [00:22:31]:
Alright. Thank you.

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