Sheldon [00:01:42]:

Welcome listeners to Leading Equity podcast. Kathleen, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you for having me. I'm really excited. We talked earlier before we started recording that I had the pleasure of reading your book, Disrupting Poverty, 5 Powerful Classroom Practices, and I wanted to take the time to talk about poverty and some of your research. So we'll get right into it. My first question that I have is, what are some harmful myths

Kathleen [00:02:11]:

that we tend to have about students living in poverty? Yeah, so that is 1 of the things that we do take on in the book and actually in our first book also and You know the the thing about those myths is that they are deeply embedded in our society And so they do impact us so soon as some of the common things that are believed in, and myth is kind of a nice word, stereotype is probably a more accurate word, and we've used both. We've definitely used both, but you know, things like that people in poverty are lazy. That's a real typical 1 that, If I ask a question, and I always do in workshops that I conduct, what do people in the United States believe about people in poverty? I get these same predictable answers that they're lazy, that they are addicted to drug and alcohol, that they don't care about education or don't value education, that they are using the system, they just wanna hand out, it's a choice. They could make a different choice, they could make better choices. So there's a whole lot of them that are embedded in, like I say, in the culture of our fabric of our society. And so those could be really harmful. And in fact, in the Disrupting Poverty book, what we did is we actually paired a stereotype or 2 with each of the practices that we have, that teachers tell us disrupt the adverse effects of poverty what I mean by paired with paired that them is like in the organization of the book when we talk about holding high expectations for kids who live in poverty a harmful stereotype is that people who live in poverty are not as smart as people who do not live in poverty or another stereotype that's harmful is that they don't value education and so It can get in the way of holding high Expectations for all kids if we actually believe that. And the sad thing about it is there are educators that believe

Sheldon [00:04:05]:

that, you know, because someone is poor, they're coming from low income or even no income homes, that they aren't as smart as those who are maybe middle class and up. And thank you for sharing some of the myths that are out there as far as people that live in poverty. You mentioned, you know, they got themselves into this, their situation, their living off of, you know, welfare or whatever, federal programs are out there. So

Kathleen [00:04:32]:

how do we dispel those myths? So what are actually some of those facts? What are the facts about children living in poverty and and how can educators use this knowledge in their classrooms? Well the fact is that kids who live in poverty experience, the experiences of poverty are very diverse. That people who live in poverty, including kids that live in poverty, don't have 1 quintessential experience of it. It's not all the same. They're not all partaking in an anti-poverty program. Some are, some aren't. Some kids in poverty underachieve. Other kids in poverty don't underachieve. Some kids in poverty come behind. Many do come behind in terms of coming to school with readiness, but some don't. Some of them have very chaotic homes. Others don't have as chaotic a home. Some have parents who are drug and alcohol addicted. Others don't. So 1 of the things that we want to do is we want to get people to kind of open their minds about that poverty is, the experience of poverty is as diverse as the number of the people who live in poverty. And, and then, you know, 1, so that's 1 thing and that kids, we've just, In both of the studies that Bill and I have done, we have seen educators disrupt, and that's really why we titled this book, Disrupt the Adverse Effects of Poverty, and students who live in poverty, even those that underachieve or are behind, We've seen those kids catch up. We've seen schools succeed beyond, you know, kind of beat the odds. So the fact is, I guess the central fact that I would want teachers to, or educators, not just teachers, educators to understand is that a lot of what we believe about kids in poverty do them a great disservice and that kids who live in poverty are as capable as any other kids, you know. And so I think that's an important piece. Now, how we kind of approach that when we talk, when we, in the book, in both of our books actually, and when we work with, and we do quite a bit of either professional development or actually working in schools, we talk about that all of us have to know ourselves first. We have to understand who we are and what our story is and where we come from And we use a term that's really not our term at all. It's, you know, from research in the 1970s by Chris Ardress, I think from MIT, and maybe David Shone was there too, who talked about mental maps. And, you know, Mental maps are the images, the assumptions, the stories that we carry around in our minds about the way the world works. And we all have mental maps about poverty and about people who live in poverty. And so what we do is we try to get teachers to, or educators to explore their own mental map. And like, where did your ideas about poverty come from? Maybe you grew up in poverty, maybe you didn't. Maybe you've never known anybody that lived in poverty. Maybe it's from your students that you've learned or whatever, and we try to get them to, 1, recognize that they have a mental map, that that mental map affects their attitude and their actions, and that part of the work of disrupting poverty has to be starting with who you are, what your story is, and being open and vulnerable to challenging your own ideas and your own assumptions. Yeah,

Sheldon [00:07:45]:

Yeah, I could see that. And I think 1 of the overarching themes that you've mentioned in your response is that it is possible for students to beat those odds. Their circumstances

Kathleen [00:08:01]:

should not define them, but they can be encouraged and they can get the resources and they can get the support, but that support has to be there from educators. Absolutely. Absolutely. And, you know, sometimes in a child who lives in poverty has an adult, maybe it is their parent, 1 of their parents, or maybe it is an aunt or an uncle, but a lot of times it is educators who are role models and mentors and people who intervene in their lives in positive ways. We certainly learned that in writing the book

Sheldon [00:08:36]:

and interviewing teachers who themselves had grown up in poverty. Okay. So let's get a little bit more detail in your research. So could you maybe share a story? Because 1 of the things I liked about the book is there were, you know, you gave examples from students and then you also gave examples, like actual stories from teachers that, you know, grew up in all kinds of situations. And part of their calling to become educators was because of some of the experiences that they face and they've been able to identify and relate to students. So could you maybe share a story within your research on how an educator kind of helped you develop some strategies or instructional practices in high poverty schools?

Kathleen [00:09:19]:

Sure, let me just preface by saying that we ended up, for the book, we ended up probably interviewing around 45, 50 teachers, some of them in focus groups and some of them in one-on-one interviews. And we describe 18 of them in the book. And of those 18, about a little over half grew up in poverty themselves. And the others that participated, that helped us kind of put together the book and give kind of the tips and wisdom from teachers. Those teachers we recruited from across the country as just teachers who had been really successful, kind of kid whisperer kinds of teachers, really successful with kids no matter who they were in their classroom from year to year. But those teachers who grew up in poverty really we were very interested in kind of what is their wisdom, what would they tell us and there's so many stories. We try to, again when we do workshops, we try to have people read 4 of those vignettes in kind of a jigsaw. Everybody takes 1 and then shares them. 1 of the stories that really… There's 2, and I just would tell just a brief piece of 2 of them. 1 is Anna. So in the book, that's of course a pseudonym, but Anna is a special education. Actually, I think she's a first or second grade teacher now, but she was a special education student. And in high school, she realized Anna had tons of challenges in her life. Both of her parents were drug addicted, and both of them ended up in federal penitentiary when she was a teenager. She ended up living with her mother's last boyfriend who actually just gave her a room. That was it, just a room. There was no financial support, no food, no anything. So she ended up working. She had to work. She was really on her own. And then she went to school. And somewhere in high school, she decided that she just did not want to be in special education anymore. So she talked to her teacher, her special ed teacher about it and kind of about her circumstances and her special ed teacher said if you want out we're going to figure out a way to and we're just you're gonna have to work really hard but here's your way out of special ed." She actually did get out of special ed and eventually ended up through the support of that community and teachers in that school, particularly that 1 special ed teacher. She ended up going to college and becoming a teacher. Anna's situation is pretty severe in terms of the challenges that she faced and and Javon is another 1 that sticks out in my mind Javon again A pseudonym was a twin And he was growing up in the South, single mom, with a single mom, and his mother made a decision to move to a town in New England, which was a college town, a university town. And she did that knowing that the kids were going to get exposed to a better public school system and a university town that valued education. And she herself did not have, I don't even know if she had a high school, I don't think she had a high school diploma, But she worked really hard and she very much valued education and she wanted her children, her boys, her kids to get an education. And what was startling about that story is Javon talked about his experience in the first school that he attended and then his experience in the second school and even in the neighbor the differences in those schools in terms of the expectations of kids and the Neighborhood influences in both of those places that he lived and it really does go to how much as a country, we don't do very well by kids who live in poverty, particularly when they live in concentrations with areas with other kids who live in poverty. And so what he found was where these expectations were high, where neighbors and friends were supportive, where he was in this environment of a university town. Both of those kids, both those boys ended up going into education. 1 became a principal and I believe 1, got to look back at his story again, but I believe 1 guy has a doctorate, maybe they both do. So, you know, very different experiences of poverty. And still, they lived in poverty. Mom was a single mom working service jobs, but they had a very different experience because of their mom's expectations, that move, and that community. So those 2 informed us. Those are just 2 of, you know, 8 or 9 stories that we have in the book. Each of those teachers had a story to tell us about the different experience of poverty that they had, but then they all, what they all have in common, as different as they are, is they all somewhere had a caring adult that you know disrupted the adverse effect of poverty on them and held their hand and was their mentor and was their role model and You know help them move forward and make choices about getting and furthering their own education.

Sheldon [00:14:22]:

And it was a way of breaking the cycle of poverty. Wow, powerful stories. And like you said, there's you have 2, 2 situations. And both of those students and technically 3, if you count the twins, they both were able to triumph over their circumstances. And like you said, I like that you say the mentorship piece because that seems to be a common theme, especially for first-generation, limited-income kids. Maybe their parents or guardians do not have, they want them to be successful, but being that they don't have the experience or the resources, they think, well, I don't know how to help. So I appreciate you sharing about the mentorship piece. Yeah,

Kathleen [00:15:05]:

it is absolutely key. I am first generation college in my family. And my parents valued a high school education because that's what they had. My father, I went to college a long time ago, I'll just say that. But in that day and age, my father wasn't very keen on me going to college. He couldn't see the necessity of a girl going to college. And my mom supported me in that and I ended up going to college kind of on my own. And if it weren't for a professor, actually, that's where my mentor came in as a professor that got me through my first English 101 class, I wouldn't have ever graduated. I certainly I Probably would have gone back home I'm not sure what I would have done because I wanted to be a teacher from a very young age So it was so it was absolutely life-changing for me to have an adult. So, you know the thing about my parents I think this is where we have to be really compassionate towards our own situation and the situation of others. And my parents, even though, even no matter how much value they would have placed on going to college, They couldn't have helped me through an experience. They themselves never had and you know, we have to remember that when we sometimes judge Parents as not caring. Sometimes it's really about not knowing how right or being embarrassed to ask how or not even knowing what to ask. Yeah. Or how to support, yeah.

Sheldon [00:16:35]:

Yeah, and I think that's, I don't remember if you mentioned that, but I agree that's 1 of those myths is that the parents don't care, but I mean, it's not that they don't care, they just, they don't know.

Kathleen [00:16:45]:

So. They don't know. And we're working on another book right now that's really on parent, it's kind of rethinking parents who live in poverty because what we're finding as we're looking at doing a review of the literature is that what we know about parents who live in low-income situations or live in poverty and or parents of color, we find that they are involved with their children's education. They're just not always involved in the ways that we stereotypically think people have to be involved in, like things at the school, attending things at the school. What we find is their involvement is often key at home and it looks different than what we think involvement should look like. And so there's just some things that I think, there again, it's challenging our own mental maps about what parent involvement is and how do we want them involved? What's the best way to have them involved? Even having them, for example, is it really important that a parent come and attend a science night or is it important that a parent ask a child about school and read to them and get them to school on time and Hopefully if they, to the degree possible, model a value of education, how important is it that they actually come to the school? Because sometimes that can be a real barrier for a whole variety of reasons for parents who live in poverty. They often did not have good experiences themselves in school. Not always, but sometimes.

Sheldon [00:18:19]:

Yeah, and

Kathleen [00:18:21]:

sometimes they're, you know, they graduated from the same school that the kids are at and, you know, like you said, they had this bad experience and they don't want to necessarily go back to that school again. Absolutely. They've been, they felt shamed when they were there, maybe struggled, and there's a whole lot of reasons. And then, you know, there's reasons sometimes related to just government authority. There's just a ton of reasons why parents can be resistant to actually physically being in schools.

Sheldon [00:18:47]:

So I want to get into 1 of the main pieces within your Disrupting Poverty book, where you talk about 5 powerful classroom practices. So I don't want to, I definitely want our readers to get the book, so if you want to just provide us with maybe an overview of those 5 practices, just leave enough so our listeners

Kathleen [00:19:13]:

can go get the book. But at least just provide a little overview for us? Sure. Well, here's what I think is really hopeful about this book is, you know, these teachers weren't superhuman people. They were good teachers. And what I think is so important about their message is that It's the ordinariness of what these good teachers do that make a difference for kids. Any teacher who decides they want to do these things can do them. They almost will sound simplistic and even some of your listeners might think, oh man, you know, like, are you kidding me? I, you know, I build relationships. So the 5 of them are building caring relationships, holding high expectations and providing the support needed, committing to equity, assuming professional accountability for student learning, and then taking courageous action. And, you know, I could talk a little bit about each 1 of them but what I would say is as ordinary as they sound, the teachers we interviewed did them with intentionality, were conscious of them, were conscious up front of who they were, what their story was, their blind, or at least always journeying towards reckoning with their blind spots, you know, their own biases. But then like just as an example of say 1 of them, take caring relationships. Every teacher probably believes that he or she builds caring relationships. What I would say made these teachers stand out, which isn't anything that other teachers couldn't do, is the, as I said, the intentionality with which they built relationships. So almost, if not at the same level that they did lesson planning or designed units, they didn't leave relationships to chance. They actually built in activities. They actually created time, particularly at the beginning of the year when they were getting to know kids. And it wasn't just about them being known by the kids and the kids knowing them, but also the relationships among the kids and nurturing that. And we're not just talking elementary teachers here either. We're talking middle school and high school teachers who were very purposeful about creating a classroom, a sense of community in their classroom or a sense of extended family in their classrooms, period after period of the day. So it's those kinds of things. What I think is, I was certainly, I guess, optimistic in reading these, in reading the transcripts of these interviews with teachers and remembering and recalling the interviews with them that, you know, these things aren't complicated, but they were things that they were very intentional about. You know, high expectations, being careful about knowing what your own biases are and how they impact your expectations. For example, 1 of the things that I just recently read that I think is just fascinating is that there's some studies out there that show that teachers actually hold lower expectations of students whose parents don't show up at parent-teacher conferences. So think about the fact that that's the parental behavior, and then we transfer that to assume less or hold a lesser expectation of that student just because a parent didn't come to a parent-teacher conference. So there can be lots of things, you know, when a child is maybe dirty or is tired or acts out, or, you know, we tend to have lower expectations of kids for a whole variety of reasons. And so being conscious of those things, and then actually really refreshing our memory. We've got 4 decades of research about what high expectations look like. So let's just get like a refresher course on what is it that teachers actually do in their classrooms when they have high expectations? You know, stuff like that, that we talk about in the book. And each chapter, I think 1 of the, if I were in a classroom teacher again, I would appreciate the end of each chapter there's a tips for teachers section where it's just the wisdom that came from these teachers. You know like with the powerful practice of assuming professional accountability for learning. So when a kid struggles and doesn't learn what you've attempted to teach them, Do you blame the kid or do you go back to the drawing board? And you know 1 of the things that teachers talked about was 1 of their tips was considering yourself on the same team as your As your as your students and not on the opposite side of the fence like it's you and the student against the algebra, right? You know, it's it's not you're on the side of the algebra and the students on the other side And it was just that was that was just there was was like are you on the same team with your kids and do they? Know you're on their team kind of thing?

Sheldon [00:23:48]:

Well, like I said earlier, if our listeners have not read the book and especially if you're working a high poverty school, I definitely encourage you to read that book. Kathleen, I asked this question to all of our, all my guests. And so I'm, you know, based off your work and your experience, I definitely consider you a champion in leading equity. What final words could you provide to our listeners? You know, I think 1 of the most important things

Kathleen [00:24:18]:

is where we started kind of this interview is that for educators to be willing to be vulnerable about their own mental maps is maybe 1 of the hardest things, but 1 of the most important things, being open to learning and being willing to sit in a space that doesn't always feel very comfortable when you have to take in information that contradicts what you believe and being and also being compassionate with yourself about that because we can only know what we've experienced and what we've learned. And sometimes we have to unlearn some things. And so my words of wisdom would be stay open, keep reading, keep developing relationships, have as many experiences as you can about whatever it is you're trying to learn about. And if it's poverty, the only thing I know to do is to do those things, be introspective, reflective and open.

Sheldon [00:25:10]:

Wow, introspective, reflective and open. Yeah. Well, I appreciate your time and I'm sure there's probably a listener or 2 that would love to maybe connect. Do you have any social medias that you would like to share or maybe can you just share with us maybe a best way to get in contact with you if there's some follow-up that might be out there? Sure,

Kathleen [00:25:32]:

So people can email me. They can also, I have a Twitter, which I just think it's at KathleenBudge account. And I don't, we don't, funny that Bill and I, my co-author do not have a web page yet, but we're working on that. But I guess, you know, I do this work as part of my scholarship for Boise State. So, you know, people can contact me via Boise State and that's fine. Okay, Well, that sounds good. Thank you so much again for your time, Kathleen.

Speaker D [00:26:03]:

Yes, you're welcome. Well, folks, that's the end of another episode of the Leading Equity Podcast. I hope you had an opportunity to learn some things today. If you haven't already, Please subscribe to the podcast, share it with your friends, provide a 5 star rating if you're looking for others to find this podcast as well because the rankings matter. So I appreciate the comments that you're leaving already. Subscribe to the podcast on iTunes or Google Play. If you're looking for more episodes, you can always go to my website, which is SheldonAikens.com. I stay active on Twitter, so please follow me, at Sheldon Aikens. And remember, in the words of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., if you can't fly, then run. If you can't run, then walk. If you can't walk, then crawl. But by all means, keep moving. Let's continue to be a voice in leading equity.

Sheldon [00:27:15]:

You

Keywords

poverty, teachers, students, instructional practices, high expectations, equity, professional accountability, relationships, community, biases, tips, interviews, myths, stereotypes, harmful, mentorship, diverse experiences, mental maps, involvement, vulnerable, learning, introspective, compassionate, first-generation, college education.

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